# The Oklahoma Treason **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594 "2008-01-30T16:01:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594/41 "2008-01-31T15:24:03Z")
I have to agree. If the signatures weren’t valid, then they weren’t valid. But if these people really did think they were acting legally, and had been told thta what they were doing was legal, then they shouldn’t be arrested. Just because they have bad ideas and pursue them aggressively doesn’t mean they ought to go to jail. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594/42 "2008-01-31T15:26:01Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Except that it still ignores previous court findings. The law was changed judicially after the fact to prevent them from getting signatures, and then the lawyers started threatening them with jail to teach them a lesson. [/QUOTE] Except it doesn’t look like it does ignore previous court findings. The group’s opinion that they could bring in outside organizers wasn’t based on a previous court decision, but instead on the advice of someone at the office of the Secretary of State. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594/43 "2008-01-31T17:00:14Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] I don’t really mind that. It’s the fact that once it was changed, the three were indicted. [/QUOTE] Both are outrages – first, changing the rules after the fact; second, penalizing your political opponents for acting within the rules as they existed at the time. The second is worse, but the first rises to the level of “inexcusable” as well. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594/44 "2008-01-31T17:03:24Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] I don’t care if they were advocating the use of nuclear weapons as hunting gear [/QUOTE] You mean that isn’t already legal in Oklahoma? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594/45 "2008-01-31T19:53:54Z")
> [@SteveMB](#): > > Both are outrages – first, changing the rules after the fact; second, penalizing your political opponents for acting within the rules as they existed at the time. The second is worse, but the first rises to the level of “inexcusable” as well. It has not been established that either of the two actually occurred. **DSYoungEsq** ’s link is filled with support for the court’s finding that the defendants did not really make a good-faith effort to ensure that they were operating within the letter of the law (it’s pretty clear that they weren’t operating within the spirit). ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594/46 "2008-02-01T02:34:20Z")
**smiling** , did you read the court’s judgement? I’d be interested in your comments on it. As I read it, those jokers were not charged because they unknowingly thought they were residents, but they weren’t residents. And they weren’t charged because the courts changed the law. They were charged for fraud. They brought in outside money, an outside organization, and outside people to collect signatures. The fact that they tried to hide it means they knew it was wrong. Inter alia, the Court found (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > ¶10 1) **The involvement of out-of-state circulators in the signature gathering process establishes a pervasive pattern of wrongdoing and fraud which, combined with the resistance to discovery and continued secrecy surrounding the operation** , require TABOR to be stricken in its entirety. Nothing less will protect the integrity of the initiative process and uphold constitutional and statutory rights and restrictions. “a pervasive pattern of wrongdoing and fraud” … Regarding whether they “changed the law”, the Court found: > [@](#): > > The organization’s attitude on residency was that if a circulator came into Oklahoma with the intention of staying only for the duration of the petition drive or could provide some address within the state, the circulator was an Oklahoma resident - a premise not supported by Oklahoma law. The organization allegedly adopted this position based on information provided by an employee of the Oklahoma Secretary of State’s office. This, in itself, is curious as NVO represents itself as an organization armed with the “essential elements of a campaign” including “knowledge of local law.” Furthermore, an entity relying on representations of a public official does so at its peril – such reliance is not sufficient to excuse ignorance of the law as it actually exists. Regarding whether it was intentional or an “innocent mistake”, the Court found: > [@](#): > > ¶23 c)The overwhelming evidence reveals that NVO **knowingly** used in excess of sixty out-of-state circulators, recruited other out-of-state organizations to bring in circulators, and allowed a foreign national to collect signatures and another circulator to verify the petition – **all of which are illegal** activities under Oklahoma law. > > ¶24 The evidence presented leads to one undeniable conclusion – the out-of-state circulators had no intention to make Oklahoma their legal residence. The question is not whether out-of-state circulators were used in the initiative drive, the question is only how many. We can be certain that there were more than sixty out-of-state circulators working the Tabor petition. We’re not looking at some innocent mistake. The circulators had no intention of becoming residents. w. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594/47 "2008-02-01T02:55:57Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Except that it still ignores previous court findings. The law was changed judicially after the fact to prevent them from getting signatures, and then the lawyers started threatening them with jail to teach them a lesson. I really _don’t care_ what they were pushing for. I don’t care if they were advocating the use of nuclear weapons as hunting gear or demanding the genetic combination of Hitler and Stalin into a freakish offspring to play in their boy band. I _don’t care_ if people from that state hate them and don’t want outsiders to come in. They obeyed the existing laws. The government did not. If the people of Oklahoma don’t want people canvassing them, they should’ve changed the law beforehand. There is no other [rational] argument, except “Well, I just don’t like them, so I’m going to ignore when the government deliberately targets and attacks innocent citizens.” I’m _still_ fuming over this. :mad: [/QUOTE] WHAT previous court findings??? I just said that it doesn’t do anything of the sort, apparently. Can you name the previous court findings, please?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oklahoma-treason/435594.md?page=2)