# The Oldest Country on Earth. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 3, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206 "2005-11-03T00:23:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/21 "2005-11-03T19:30:13Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Based on the criteria of the duration of the current form of government, here’s how old the twenty five most populous countries in the world are: > > China - 1949 > India - 1950 > United States - 1789 > > … bit missing out of the middle… > > Ukraine - 1996 I see how this works now… play around with the rules until we can establish the US as the “oldest country on earth”. Nice one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/22 "2005-11-03T19:43:42Z")
> [@Vetch](#): > > I see how this works now… play around with the rules until we can establish the US as the “oldest country on earth”. Nice one. 🙂 To be fair, the US has never been conquered or successfully overthrown since the establishment of the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/23 "2005-11-03T19:44:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Egypt dates back to approximately 3200 BC, at least. Granting that it’s had various sorts of government since then, but the concept of “Egypt,” or the equivalent word in other languages - Kemet, or Misr, or what have you - has been clearly understood as being, well, what we consider to be Egypt since that time. But Egypt was ruled by Greece and Rome, so I don’t think you can go back further than that. > [@](#): > > China dates back to at least approximately 1800 BC, the founding of the Shang dynasty; that’s the earliest verifiable point at which a “China” definitely existed. China came under the rule of the Monguols in 1279, so that might be problematic. Iceland was ruled by Norway/Denmark for most of its existence. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/24 "2005-11-03T20:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I see how this works now… play around with the rules until we can establish the US as the “oldest country on earth”. Nice one. Actually, under those rules, I think Switzerland might beat the US. The only Swiss revolution I know of occured in the early 1300s. Mind you, it’s quite possible there’s some break in Swiss continuity later than that, and it’s also quite possible that some other nation is older, but I don’t think the US is the winner. Paging **Arnold Winkelried** , paging **Arnold Winkelried** , please. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/25 "2005-11-03T20:39:24Z")
Turkey? (goes back to Ottoman Empire) Thailand? (never conquered since its founding in the 13th century) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/26 "2005-11-03T20:43:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, under those rules, I think Switzerland might beat the US. The only Swiss revolution I know of occured in the early 1300s. Mind you, it’s quite possible there’s some break in Swiss continuity later than that, and it’s also quite possible that some other nation is older, but I don’t think the US is the winner. > > Paging **Arnold Winkelried** , paging **Arnold Winkelried** , please. Under the “single stable government” rule, Switzerland dates from 1848, after the Sonderbund civil war. Swiss history timeline: [http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/](http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/) What about Sweden? AFAIK, it’s been under a monarchy without revolutions or invasions since Gustavus Vasa freed it from the Kalmar Confederation. A few assassinations, the adoption of Marshall Bernadotte as his son and heir by the last Vasa king, a bunch of _grundlagen_ creating a parliamentary constitution, but all that within a framework of stable constitutional change, not the sort of abrupt change of government that we have agreed breaks the string. And I know little about Thai history, but it’s my impression that it’s been an independent monarchy following essentially the same gradual-change process for several hundred years. Dominated as a puppet state, not conquered, by the Japanese in WWII. (By the way, what do protectorates do to our definitions? If, say, Tonga retains internal autonomy and depends on the U.K. for defense and foreign relations, does that make it un-independent?) ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/27 "2005-11-03T20:47:00Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > To be fair, the US has never been conquered or successfully overthrown since the establishment of the Republic. The same would be true of England since 1066 CE. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/28 "2005-11-03T21:03:00Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The thing is if you go back as recently as 1800 and then work your way forward, you quickly find how few countries manage to remain continuously independant. In the last two centuries, pretty much every country outside of Europe was controlled by a European power at some point. And France under Napoleon or Germany under Hitler occupied most of the territory in Europe itself. I apologise for this not being much of a cite, but about ten or fifteen years ago, I heard a little factoid along the lines of there only being _nine_ countries that had managed a century of continual, stable _democratic_ government without revolution, coup, civil war, etc. They included Australia in this, but if you disqualify it, as it wasn’t technically a nation until 1901 (when the nation was peacefully established as a federation of the former colonies), then the answer is actually eight. This doesn’t specifically address the OP of course, as a country can have major upheavals such as a military coup, and still be the same nation, depending on your definition. However, if the number is eight or nine out of the several hundred nations that exist, then it certainly illustrates how surprisingly difficult it is to keep a place motoring along smoothly for any length of time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/29 "2005-11-03T21:28:25Z")
Another thought, how about the Vatican? I _think_ that its continuity can be traced back to the establishment of the Papal States in the Renaissance (though it’s shrunk considerably since then), and “Pope in absolute authority over everything” has been the rule for all of that time. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/30 "2005-11-03T21:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I see how this works now… play around with the rules until we can establish the US as the “oldest country on earth”. Nice one. Actually, I was surprised. Until I started looking, I assumed the US was a fairly young country as these things go. That said, any government is going to evolve as time goes on. It’s debatable whether you can really say that the United States that existed in 1789 is the same country that exists in 2005 or existed in 1776. Is the Fifth Republic of France a different country from the Fourth Republic or the Second Empire or the Directorate? Was England the same country as the United Kingdom? Is Germany a different country since it reunited? But if you ignore governments and only count people, then Tanzania is the oldest country on Earth - that’s apparently the first place people lived and some of their descendants have lived there ever since. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/31 "2005-11-03T22:14:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another thought, how about the Vatican? I _think_ that its continuity can be traced back to the establishment of the Papal States in the Renaissance (though it’s shrunk considerably since then), and “Pope in absolute authority over everything” has been the rule for all of that time. There was a break in continuity of residing at the Vatican in Rome with the [Popes of Avignon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popes_in_Avignon) in the 14th century. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/32 "2005-11-04T00:48:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I see how this works now… play around with the rules until we can establish the US as the “oldest country on earth”. Nice one. Obviously the US isn’t the oldest country on earth, but we may have the longest continuous present government. One could make the argument that the extensions of the franchise and direct election of Senators make this a different government than the original, though I’d disagree. > [@](#): > > by **Cerowyn** > The same would be true of England since 1066 CE. Where did you get that idea? It’s had civil war and William of Orange. The latter William may have had the support of Parliament, but he certainly backed it up with a vast fleet and a large body of troops. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/33 "2005-11-04T01:03:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Turkey? (goes back to Ottoman Empire) > > Thailand? (never conquered since its founding in the 13th century) Well, again, it’s that definition problem, but I definitely wouldn’t include Turkey which is a thoroughly twentieth century creation. The Ottoman state was dominated by Turks, but was defintely multi-ethnic with boundaries far beyond those Turkey currently has. Thailand was briefly conquered or at least shattered by Burma in the 1760’s/1770’s - the capital was destroyed, the west overrun and state structure collapsed ( various provincial warlords declaring independence ). The dynastic kingdom of Ayyuthia, in place since the 14th century, came to an end in 1767. This produced an interregnum of around a decade before a combination of Chinese pressure on Burma’s northern border ( Burma ultimately fought off a series of four Manchu invasions ) and the rise of a particularly capable Thai leader rose to push them back and restablish Siam under a new( the current ) dynasty, which however was overthrown after a few years and replaced by the current Chakri dynasty in 1782. Governmentally then, it is just slightly younger than the United States. Oh and at its height in the late 19th century Siam was a much larger state ( or at least hegemony ), including all of Laos and Cambodia and wider areas in the Malay penninsula as either vassals or outright demesnes. France extracted the eastern territories in Indochina by force in the very late 19th/early 20th centuries. The Malay possessions were bargained away to the British. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/34 "2005-11-04T01:09:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > and the rise of a particularly capable Thai leader rose to push them back and restablish Siam under a new( the current ) dynasty, which however was overthrown after a few years and replaced by the current Chakri dynasty in 1782. Sorry - editing on the fly is always my downfall :). Of course that first ( very short-lived, 1776-1782 ) dynasty isn’t the current one. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/35 "2005-11-04T01:45:24Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > The same would be true of England since 1066 CE. Wouldn’t Cromwell’s ascent to power count as the government being successfully overthrown? I say that if you have the clout to militarily defeat and subsequently behead the king, you have waged a successful revolution and broken the chain of peaceful transitions of government. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/36 "2005-11-04T01:48:04Z")
[My cite for Cromwell and his Revolution.](http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/mon48.html) There is tons of info online, this is simply the webpage I found first. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/37 "2005-11-04T04:17:20Z")
Hmm. Duration of continuous government under present constitutional structure? That’s kind of narrow, isn’t it? Canada would only date to about 1982 by that definition. A cultural definition would make more sense, I think. China would count as the oldest continuous _culture_, as other posters have stated. Egypt may be older, but I don’t believe the present language/culture of what we call ‘Egypt’ is continuous with that of the Pharaohs. And of course Sumer was overrun even earlier than Egypt. I’m wondering whether Incan, Quechuan, Aztec, or Mayan cultures are old enough and continuous enough to work… ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/38 "2005-11-04T10:17:40Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Where did you get that idea? It’s had civil war and William of Orange. The latter William may have had the support of Parliament, but he certainly backed it up with a vast fleet and a large body of troops. So? That’s like saying the US only dates back to 1865. Where two branches of government or two parts of a country disagree and the issue is resolved by the use or threat of force, I think it’s fair enough to say that the country remains the same if there are no material changes to the habits and arrangements of governance. The US after the civil war had the same constitution and so on as before. England continued after slotting in a new monarch in the place of an old one - the facts on the ground didn’t change much. I think Cromwell counts as an interruption of governance since he disrupted BOTH branches of authority (Monarchy and Parliament), but it’s sort of tricky that afterwards things picked up where they left off - a hiatus more than a break, if you will. Similarly, where a country decides to change its form of government and does so peacefully and in accord with the legal provisions of its former government, it seems a bit odd to say that it has started afresh. If de Gaulle drafts a new constitution, 79% of French citizens vote for it in a referendum, and it is adopted, then surely the Republic of France has been operating according to its own laws and constitution throughout the whole process, and has been in continous existence? **Sunspace** - Culturally, I don’t believe the Amerindian civilizations you refer to exist anymore than the Vikings, Celts or Romans do. Having people of related ethnicity with some inherited traditions living in the same geographic area does not mean they are part of the same culture. Incidentally, by China are we referring to the Han only? I always get lost in the maze of dynasties, regions and languages, even though its no more complicated than European history - probably because I came to it late in life 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/39 "2005-11-04T10:48:17Z")
Denmark claims to be the oldest kingdom on earth ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206/40 "2005-11-04T13:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > So? That’s like saying the US only dates back to 1865. That might well be a valid point of view. The point here is that there’s no good answer, because it all comes down to opinion and rules. You can set up the rues however you like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oldest-country-on-earth/329206.md?page=3)