# The One Ring: effect on animals and possible alternate delivery methods **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 1, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240 "2007-03-01T23:39:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/141 "2007-03-08T02:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=Clark K] Using “fell beast” as if it were a species name makes as much sense as calling them “nasty critters.” [/QUOTE] In fairness, I don’t think Tolkien ever got around to calling them anything else, other than “winged steeds,” which is not really an improvement. It’s an interesting exception, as he’s generally so fastidious about names, and I think it’s likely an intentional contrast: _“These things were so messed up, nobody even knew what the hell they were. But they were really messed up, all right.”_ FWIW, I always envisioned them as black, nasty-looking pteranodons. As a result, I had a hard time accepting the giant flying eels in Peter Jackson’s movies. Hijack: does anyone know if there’s a currently available recording of Tolkien reading from his own works? I used to have a tape of him reciting “Riddles in the Dark,” but it has long since passed to Obsolete Audio Media Valinor. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/142 "2007-03-08T02:22:38Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Gondolin got pretty well and thoroughly sacked by the forces of Morgoth waaaaay back in the first age, so all the loot passed into enemy hands, where I’m sure it made the rounds. Turgon the Noldorin king of Gondolin wielded Glamdring, but he fell to the enemy. It’s not known which of the residents of Gondolin originally wielded Orcrist, but it was undoubtably lost to the enemy at the same time. [/QUOTE] I agree with whoever wrote the [Wiki entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcrist): > [@](#): > > As the “mate” to King Turgon’s sword Glamdring, Orcrist was borne by an Elf of Gondolin, most likely Ecthelion. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/143 "2007-03-08T02:28:07Z")
We know Orcrist was not borne by Samuel L Jackson, because it did not have “bad mother fucker” engraved into it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/144 "2007-03-08T02:35:43Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] I agree with whoever wrote the [Wiki entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcrist): Jim [/QUOTE] BTW, it really was not me, I only wrote a few of the Tolkien Articles several years ago and all my contributions have been edited away. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/145 "2007-03-08T02:55:12Z")
It is purest supposition that Orcrist was wielded by Ecthelion. JRRT wrote _nothing_ (that I’m aware of) tying the two of them together. Given Gondolin’s large population, I expect other heroic elvish figures went unmentioned, including many other Noldor in exile. They could well have wielded Orcrist in their day. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/146 "2007-03-08T03:43:26Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] It is purest supposition that Orcrist was wielded by Ecthelion. JRRT wrote _nothing_ (that I’m aware of) tying the two of them together. Given Gondolin’s large population, I expect other heroic elvish figures went unmentioned, including many other Noldor in exile. They could well have wielded Orcrist in their day. [/QUOTE] Agreed, but Ecthalion was the great Captain of Gondolin and Orcrist and Glamring appeared to be brothers of the forge. I just think he was the likeliest. I wondered why the Wiki editor came to the same reasoning? Here is the reasoning on the discussion page: > [@](#): > > I added that it was owned by an Elf of Gondolin, who would have most likely been Ecthelion. For the sake of discussion, the logic behind Ecthelion as the owner: - Being the mate to the King’s sword and found in the Troll hoard, it must have come from Gondolin. - The elf must have died (or otherwise lost their sword) in the city. - Being an enchanted weapon as well as feared by orcs, it can be assumed it was weilded by someone of distinction, and likely nobility. With the third assumption and preceding two facts, it is frequently thought that the weilder must have been the head of the House (one of the named characters). Turgon, Maeglin, Rog, Tuor, Egalmoth and Galdor may all be excluded immediately, as either owning named swords (Turgon and Maeglin) or weapons that do not fit (Rog’s hammer, Tuor’s axe, Egalmoth’s curved sword, Galdor’s club). Furthermore, Egalmoth and Galdor survived to the Havens. Salgent’s blade is unlikely to be feared, as he was craven. Glorfindel fell outside of the city. Duilin was an archer, and perished without drawing a sword in the fall. Thus he may be removed from speculation. This leaves two remaining candidates, of the named elves: Penlod and Ecthelion. > > The argument for Ecthelion strengthens in that his sword was marked as remarkable (“it could harm their [Balrog’s] fire”). This strengthens the argument that his sword (Orcrist or not) would have been enchanted. Concerning orcs being fearful, he kills Orcobal as well as two other orc captains. > > Penlod, while a Captain, is not specifically noted as performing deeds other than being killed in the defense of the city. > > With the above in mind, it would seem far more likely that Ecthelion (an Elf conceived before The Hobbit, and thus existing in Tolkien’s mind to own the sword Orcrist) was the initial owner of the sword than for Orcrist to have an elf that remained unnamed. > > In essense, the readers are filling in a gap with the most likely conclusion by using sufficient supporting evidence. That being said, I feel “most likely” is the strongest that can be said for Ecthelion’s ownership as it is not canon. Retrieved from [Talk:Orcrist - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Orcrist) Jim ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/147 "2007-03-08T03:49:49Z")
Only the Orcs considered Glamdring and Orcrist to be a pair, but from anyone else’s point of view, Glamdring would be far superior. Glamdring is the Foe-hammer, while Orcrist is the Goblin-cleaver. In other words, Orcrist was a specialized weapon for slaying orcs, while Glamdring would be equally effective against all foes. And while Ecthelion was a great hero, he’s most famous for fighting not orcs, but a Balrog. In D&D terms, Glamdring would be a Longsword +5, while Orcrist would probably be a Longsword +2, +5 vs. Goblinoids. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/148 "2007-03-08T04:07:28Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Only the Orcs considered Glamdring and Orcrist to be a pair, but from anyone else’s point of view, Glamdring would be far superior. Glamdring is the Foe-hammer, while Orcrist is the Goblin-cleaver. In other words, Orcrist was a specialized weapon for slaying orcs, while Glamdring would be equally effective against all foes. And while Ecthelion was a great hero, he’s most famous for fighting not orcs, but a Balrog. In D&D terms, Glamdring would be a Longsword +5, while Orcrist would probably be a Longsword +2, +5 vs. Goblinoids. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Elrond] They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon’s hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!" “Whence did the trolls get them, I wonder?” said Thorin looking at his sword with new interest. “I could not say,” said Elrond, “but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.” [/QUOTE] Against my argument is the fact that Elrond would probably have known who Orcrist was wielder by. He may not have bothered mentioning Ecthalion however as Thorin would not have a clue who he was. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/149 "2007-03-08T04:33:41Z")
Oh, and I found the reference to a Nazgul carrying an orc: From _The Two Towers_, book III, chapter 3, “The Uruk-Hai”: > [@](#): > > ‘If we could cross the Great River, we might [return to Lugburz],’ said another voice. ‘But there are not enough of us to venture down to the bridges.’ > > ‘I came across,’ said the evil voice. ‘A winged Nazgul awaits us northward on the east-bank.’ > > ‘Maybe, maybe! Then you’ll fly off with our prisoners…’ It’s not quite explicit, but the implication is that the Nazgul carried Grishnakh across the river, and would be able to fly back with Grishnakh and both prisoners (Merry and Pippin). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/150 "2007-03-08T04:37:54Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Oh, and I found the reference to a Nazgul carrying an orc: From _The Two Towers_, book III, chapter 3, “The Uruk-Hai”:It’s not quite explicit, but the implication is that the Nazgul carried Grishnakh across the river, and would be able to fly back with Grishnakh and both prisoners (Merry and Pippin). [/QUOTE] Good digging, I could argue that it was only an ignorant orc comment and several other nitpicks, but I would rather concede the possibility. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/151 "2007-03-08T06:17:36Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] …I only wrote a few of the Tolkien Articles several years ago and all my contributions have been edited away… [/QUOTE] I _hate_ it when that happens! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/152 "2007-03-08T13:15:32Z")
[QUOTE=Love Rhombus] Sounds reasonable. I might have liked it better if the Goblin-king had kept them, seeing as how they’re obviously good stuff, but I suppose if a troll decides he’s going to have something, there’s not much you can do otherwise… [/QUOTE] Well, he wouldn’t. They despised the very sight of the horrid things. Similarly when Merry and Pippin were picked up by the Uruk-hai, their Barrow-blades got tossed aside straight away, for the Orcs recognised them as Numenorean manufacture and jam-packed with anti-Darkness enchantments. That was reason enough to leave them lying. Except for the _special purpose: slay Morgul Lords; special purpose power: Dispel Morgul Lord’s “invulnerabillty to normal weapons” enchantment on a successful hit_ factor, the Barrow-blades were surely less in power than the weapons the Gondolindrim were knocking out. Good as the Numenoreans were, in Gondolin there were smiths who’d lived in the Blessed Realm and may even have personally taken lessons from Aule! If you’re a Goblin-King, you’d as soon stuff your throne cushion with plutonium as keep that kind of thing about the place. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240/153 "2007-03-08T15:02:02Z")
earlier in the thread someone asked about recordings of Tolkien. You can buy the Tolkien audio collection, on CD, of the Prof doing readings from his works. Here’s a link to Amazon, tho I’m sure you could get it elsewhere: [http://www.amazon.com/J-R-R-Tolkien-Audio-Collection/dp/0694525707/ref=pd\_bbs\_sr\_1/104-8892686-1180757?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173365906&sr=8-1](http://www.amazon.com/J-R-R-Tolkien-Audio-Collection/dp/0694525707/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8892686-1180757?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173365906&sr=8-1) PS - Sorry I don’t know how to make that link short [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-ring-effect-on-animals-and-possible-alternate-delivery-methods/394240.md?page=7)