# The One-State Solution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641 "2009-01-23T15:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/41 "2009-01-23T19:24:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Let me know when the killing starts otherwise I hope you don’t mind that I think this analogy is worthless. It’s your language that is lacking in utility, because imprecise. You used language broad enough that it admitted comparison with a situation where there was no killing but mutual mistrust. I cannot write your posts for you. I can only point out when they are sloppily vague enough to apply to otherwise-disanalogous situations. Recall that I’ve stated several times that I Don’t Care what happens in Israel. Do you want me to stipulate that Arab terrorists are bad and Israelis have noble motives? Done and done. But when you make sloppy statements implying that it’s a no-brainer to reach these conclusions because everyone understands that ideologically-divided people can’t live together, I’m going to call you on the implications of that, if you haven’t qualified it more narrowly. “Ideologically diverse people separated by a homicidal animus on one side can’t live together” – fine. Then spell it out. Of course, that will require you to prove more subsidiary premises, and I’m sure you can. Just don’t make it seem more simple than it is. If your characterization of the Arab-Israeli conflict is framed in terms that on their face cover red/blue, then you’re opening yourself up to being called on that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/42 "2009-01-23T19:27:48Z")
Yes, it is very generous of Qaddafi to offer up a solution that would eliminate Israel and replace it with a state assured to be an Arab majority within a decade. :rolleyes: It isn’t going to happen and no amount of pressure imaginable would get Israel to agree to it. Some strange comments in this thread that bear discussing though. **Paul** , in response to **Treis** ’s comment that many Arab’s still are dogmatically comitted to all of the land for them alone, to killing the Jews, and > [@](#): > > If they became Israeli citizens, they would be free to move about the country and buy weapons, or materials to make them. you answer > [@](#): > > Yes. Treating people like equals is sometimes awkward. WTF? **BG** , you are incorrect when you state > [@](#): > > A one-state solution is the only conceivable solution that will not require the Israeli settlers in the WB to move. They could be allowed to stay there as citizens of the new Palestinian country (endowed with rights and protections and subject to the rule of state law just like Arabs citizens are in Israel). Or they could be offered that vs. an inducement to leave (yeah, money.) Those are also conceivable but unlike the one-state solution something that has a chance in Hell of happening. **toadspittle** states > [@](#): > > I think Israel is in trouble, any way you slice it. There is no way it is going to be able to withstand the inexorable march of demographic change. and may be correct. At historically normative birthrates Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel proper within a few generations. But (s)he may [be wrong.](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=432222&contrassID=2&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y) Birthrates are high among Arabs mainly as a correlate of the modern style of living. > [@](#): > > birth rates in the Jewish sector have remained very stable: from 3.5 births at the establishment of the state, the average rate has slowly and quietly dropped to the current 2.6 births (with a brief leap to four births in the early 1950s, when large Jewish families arrived from the Muslim countries). > > Fertility trends in the non-Jewish sectors, by contrast, have undergone dramatic shifts. When the state was established, the average birth rate among Muslims was eight births per woman. In the sixties the figure leaped to 10 births; today it stands at 4.6 births. The Druze population began with an average of seven births per woman; the figure rose to eight in the sixties and is now 8.2 per woman. Only the Christians, who began with an average rate of 4.5 births, now fall below the Jewish average with 2.3 births per woman. > > This trend of a rise followed by a drop is therefore found in all of the groups, and most markedly among the non-Jews. The demographers attribute it to the diverse effects of the modernization process. In the short term, modernization boosts fertility (mostly thanks to improved health care), but in the long run its various aspects - the move into cities and cramped apartments, women’s employment outside the home, the desire for more disposable income - causes a significant drop in birth rates… > > … The maximal prediction is that the Arab sector will maintain its current fertility level; in other words, DellaPergola is not entertaining the possibility of a further hike. The minimal assessment, which he himself dismisses as untenable, is an immediate drop in the Arab fertility level to match Jewish fertility. His “real” estimate is that the slow drop in the Arab fertility level will continue, while Jewish fertility will remain stable, until the two finally even out in 2050 at an average 2.6 births per woman. … That article continues with some discussion of how some believe that the demographic trends should inform long term Israeli self-interest (assuming that maintaining a Jewish identity state is Israeli self-interest.) To summarize (adding in my own biases as well) - Israeli self interest is served by[ul] [li]A two state solution that gives the PA some heavier Palestinian populated areas currently within Israel and annexes some of the larger settlements in the West Bank.[/li][li]Raising the Israeli Arab standard of living as higher standard of living tends to be correlated with lower fecundity.[/li][li]Helping that new Palestinian state be a successful country such that Palestinians there have no desire to illegally move to within Israel for employment.[/li][/ul] **mswas** , you felt safe in Manhattan? I dunno, those out of work Masters of the Universe might be getting kind desperate … ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/43 "2009-01-23T19:28:38Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > My analogy is not invalid. The official American party line is that different races and ethnic groups should always be able to get along. Well, it is invalid because it’s the argument that different groups should get along when they choose to immigrate here. Not that we could force Germany and Switzerland to become Switzany, and that it would be just fine. Let alone that we could force Georgia and Russia to be, er… (Georgia? Russia?) Georgiarus, and there wouldn’t be a civil war pretty much immediately. > [@Huerta88](#): > > That is, I was making fun of, as much as anything, the glib Western assurance that culture doesn’t matter, that differences will always and inevitably lead to nothing but a gorgeous mosaic, that economic migrants have a fervent commitment to assimilating, that those advocating irredentist Aztlan fantasies in public universities are fully on-board with the unified American project. Fair enough, I didn’t realize you were being tongue in cheek and I evidently missed the import of what you were saying. My apologies. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > What does America giving back land stolen from Native Americans have to do with Israel? Nothing. Perhaps the fact that we stole their land, will never give it back, and nobody thinks that will ever change? > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Their descendants aren’t _en mass_ asking for it back, are they? Property rights are valid/invalid depending on how many people agitate for them? > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > When Israeli’s give Americans billions of aid every year, then they can start making suggestions about how we run our country in mattrs that do not involve them. Until then, perhaps they should stick to arguing their own interests and not be distracting I’d just like to note the very interesting fact that you began talking about “propagandists” and have now moved on to, evidently, claiming that Americans who make that argument somehow represent Israel “being distracting” to our political discussion. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > What does South Africa have to do with it you ask? Perhaps you are unaware of the analogy that Apartheid South Africa is similar to how the Israelis treat the Palestinians. Yes, I know that the Israeli propagandists reject this out of hand, but a number of observers, including Jimmy Carter have made this analogy. Ah yes, damn those “propagandists”, but luckily committed liar Jimmy Carter is there. Funny, was it you who recently talked about how you won’t even consider the arguments from people like Dershowitz, but even when it’s shown that Carter lies deliberately, frequently and in service of an agenda, that you choose to believe him over those who point out he can’t be trusted? [Yes.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10695347&postcount=413) > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The United States sould stop funding Israel’s making this problem worse. Until the Apartheid in Israel ends As it never began, we sure dodged a bullet there. We’ve been having a fairly honest debate here, will you please stop talking about “propagandists” and putting forward proven liars like Carter while using wildly inaccurate and inflammatory rhetoric to call Israel and apartheid state? The fact of the matter is that the 4th GC explicitly allows the security of the occupying state to justify even blockade and internment. That’s not apartheid. Israeli law (despite the fact that there are certainly bigoted Israelis who challenge it) allows for full citizenship and rights for Arab citizens, including participation in government. That’s not apartheid. And if Israel stopped following the GC sanctioned policies it currently has, rockets would be falling on every major Israeli city within a very short time. The bombast serves no purpose. We can talk about how best to balance Israeli security with Palestinian desires for sovereignty, but to simply handwave away Israeli security with a bombastic bit of bluster by calling it “apartheid” serves nobody, and certainly not accurate debate. Cut it out. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/44 "2009-01-23T19:39:14Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > It’s your language that is lacking in utility, because imprecise. You used language broad enough that it admitted comparison with a situation where there was no killing but mutual mistrust. I cannot write your posts for you. I can only point out when they are sloppily vague enough to apply to otherwise-disanalogous situations. That’s because I figured you already knew they were killing each other. > [@](#): > > Recall that I’ve stated several times that I Don’t Care what happens in Israel. Do you want me to stipulate that Arab terrorists are bad and Israelis have noble motives? Done and done. But when you make sloppy statements implying that it’s a no-brainer to reach these conclusions because everyone understands that ideologically-divided people can’t live together, I’m going to call you on the implications of that, if you haven’t qualified it more narrowly. “Ideologically diverse people separated by a homicidal animus on one side can’t live together” – fine. Then spell it out. Of course, that will require you to prove more subsidiary premises, and I’m sure you can. Just don’t make it seem more simple than it is. If your characterization of the Arab-Israeli conflict is framed in terms that on their face cover red/blue, then you’re opening yourself up to being called on that. It’s not the same, and it’s not sloppy for me not to repeat what everyone in this thread should already know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/45 "2009-01-23T19:42:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What does South Africa have to do with it? You said, of a one-state solution for Israel/Palestine, “The uneducated majority would vote its own interests against the interests of the educated minority, bleeding the economy and turning it into a failed state.” (I presume by “uneducated majority” you meant the Palestinian Arabs, most of whom can’t vote in Israeli elections.) When South Africa gave the vote to its “uneducated majority,” they did not do what you are describing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/46 "2009-01-23T19:46:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Of course, South Africa was chosen instead of Zimbabwe. I can’t guess why… Zimbabwe is not a democracy, therefore irrelevant to issues of voting behavior. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/47 "2009-01-23T19:46:28Z")
Simply as a point of fact, the Palestinians are probably the single most educated Arab population in the world. Their total adult literacy rate is at [92%](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt_statistics.html). That’s higher than Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc… Whatever their society may be like, it’s certainly not an uneducated one. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/48 "2009-01-23T19:54:57Z")
I think Qaddafi’s sly point is, if the West is determined that religion shouldn’t dictate who holds sway in nation states, and the West is so proud of their melting pots, why not coerce an ally of the West to accept the same situation. The author I think realizes it’s abserd to believe Israel will do this, instead his OP/Ed is directed at the West and asks why we do not hold our ally to the same standards we hold ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/49 "2009-01-23T19:56:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You said, of a one-state solution for Israel/Palestine, “The uneducated majority would vote its own interests against the interests of the educated minority, bleeding the economy and turning it into a failed state.” (I presume by “uneducated majority” you meant the Palestinian Arabs, most of whom can’t vote in Israeli elections.) When South Africa gave the vote to its “uneducated majority,” they did not do what you are describing. Did they destroy infrastructure that mainly benefitted them but was built by white people before apartheid ended? If not, then we’re talking about different kinds of animals, because Hamas has torn of Israeli built infrastructure in Gaza for no reason other than it was built by Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/50 "2009-01-23T19:57:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Simply as a point of fact, the Palestinians are probably the single most educated Arab population in the world. Their total adult literacy rate is at [92%](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt_statistics.html). That’s higher than Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc… > > Whatever their society may be like, it’s certainly not an uneducated one. Being able to read and being educated are not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/51 "2009-01-23T20:02:27Z")
Notice how a One-State Solution would amount to “removing the occupying regime from the map”. I’m pretty well convinced that this, not extermination the Jews with nuclear weapons, is what Ahmadiejad had in mind when he made his infamous speech. > **[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#2005_.22World_Without_Zionism.22_speech)** > > Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was President of Iran from 3 August 2005 to 3 August 2013, and during that time had repeatedly made contentious speeches and statements against Israel. Ahmadinejad refused to call Israel by name, instead calling it the “Zionist regime”. He has called for the "elimination of the Zionist regime". Ahmadinejad took part in a protest called "The World Without Zionism" and has derided Israel on numerous occasions. He has urged regional powers to cut diplomatic and econom Ahmadinej... ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/52 "2009-01-23T20:04:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Did they destroy infrastructure that mainly benefitted them but was built by white people before apartheid ended? If not, then we’re talking about different kinds of animals, because Hamas has torn of Israeli built infrastructure in Gaza for no reason other than it was built by Israelis. It’s not quite that simple. Yes, it’s a tragedy that American Jews deliberately spent 14 million dollars to ensure that the greenhouses weren’t destroyed like the rest of the buildings were (sans temples) when the Gaza settlers pulled out… and that many greenhouses were then torn to pieces or later sold off. But [it wasn’t Hamas, specifically,](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/) that tore them to pieces initially. In fact, the greenhouses were so advanced due to Israeli innovations in technology, that [many Palestinians sold them off in Egypt.](http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSL3111115220080131) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/53 "2009-01-23T20:09:56Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … many Arab’s still are dogmatically comitted to all of the land for them alone, to killing the Jews … I note some Jews are dedicated to killing the Arabs. The idea of an ethnically, religiously pure state seems just unworkable. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/54 "2009-01-23T20:17:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s not the same, and it’s not sloppy for me not to repeat what everyone in this thread should already know. Is that a normative “should,” a predictive “should,” a subjunctive “should?” I’ve already stipulated in this thread that I don’t know whose account of the Arabs’ motives for fleeing was most accurate. I suspect (but don’t know) if you gave a statement of just what it is that “everyone in this thread should already know,” you would get objections. I could be wrong. But I certainly don’t take it for granted that shorthand assumptions or it-goes-without-saying is going to work very well in a thread on this topic. Israel and certain Palestinians are in conflict? Okay, that’s probably a gimmee. Beyond that – are you really that sanguine that “everyone should [and thus does] know and concur” on any large number of facts or conclusions about the ME situation? All’s I’m asking is that people be a little more precise in their assumptions, factual premises, etc. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/55 "2009-01-23T20:18:14Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I note some Jews are dedicated to killing the Arabs. Do you think that their demographic representations and actual power are comparable? > [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > The idea of an ethnically, religiously pure state seems just unworkable. Nobody here has argued for an ethnically/religiously _pure_ state. The existence of Israel as a Jewish state (I’d argue) simply requires the Law of Return. In fact, many of Israel’s supporters have argued/campaigned/spent money precisely to make sure that Israel is a state of religious pluaralism rather than religiously “pure”. See, for instance, [ARZA.](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Farza.org%2F&ei=4CV6SbLTD9qhtwewspjBDg&usg=AFQjCNHitNOeOfJviCTXJsPKMaLMqS_uGA&sig2=N2fJ47tlLOQLzOBR56gsJQ) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/56 "2009-01-23T20:33:56Z")
So if Jews and Arabs had an equal Right of Return, you’re down with that? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/57 "2009-01-23T20:35:59Z")
**Huerta88** Israel and Palestine have been more or less regularly killing each other for fifty years. There divide is religious, and the ruling party of Gaza has it as official policy to destroy the state of Israel. Do you disagree with any of that? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/58 "2009-01-23T20:38:22Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > So if Jews and Arabs had an equal Right of Return, you’re down with that? Did you not read my post where I explicitly discussed that? But, sure, the Palestinians can have an unlimited Law of Return for their sovereign territory. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/59 "2009-01-23T20:39:48Z")
Well, fwiw, I agree with Mr Qaddafi, in the main. I have no religious superstition, either Judaic or nationalistic, telling me that Jews have a greater right per man than anyone else to the Levant. The ideal to me would be a country of Palestine where it didn’t matter if you were Jewish or not. But that may be impracticable now. So if a majority of those who wish to live there are anti-Israel, & a peaceful state can eventually built by ethnically cleansing out the Jews, then perhaps that is preferable to a regime of Israel keeping the non-Jews locked down in reservations. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/60 "2009-01-23T20:42:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Huerta88** Israel and Palestine have been more or less regularly killing each other for fifty years. There divide is religious, and the ruling party of Gaza has it as official policy to destroy the state of Israel. > > Do you disagree with any of that? I disagree that the divide is **only** religious. Otherwise I can be on board, now that you spelled that out. But that’s why spelling it out is important. I have had people say "Everyone should know that the Balfour Declaration clearly justifies . . . " and then Katie bar the door. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641.md?page=4)