# The One-State Solution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641 "2009-01-23T15:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/61 "2009-01-23T20:45:38Z")
It’s not about who has a ‘greater right per man’. A two state solution with see two sovereign states, not just Jews. That means it explicitly recognizes that two groups have an _equal right_. Which is dramatically contrasted with your support for ethnic cleansing. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > So if a majority of those who wish to live there are anti-Israel, & a peaceful state can eventually built by ethnically cleansing out the Jews, then perhaps that is preferable to a regime of Israel keeping the non-Jews locked down in reservations. To begin with, the comparison to ‘reservations’ is somewhat strangely false to facts. To follow, you have set up a false dichotomy. The choices aren’t between occupation and ethnic cleansing, it would be between occupation, peace, and ethnic cleansing. It’s also worth noting that depending on whose numbers you look at, there may very well be a majority of Jews in the area. Would you then support them ethnically cleansing the Palestinians since that would be preferable to a sovereign state having to continue an occupation to guarantee its safety? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/62 "2009-01-23T20:47:53Z")
Geopolitically, Israel/Palestine/Canaan hasn’t exactly been a secure territory since the invention of the iron chariot wheel. Which is to say, _it’s flippin’ narrow._ Dividing it into three strips only exacerbates this to the point of absurdity. Add to that that there is a lot of very understandable ill feeling on the Palestinians’ part & a real popular will to re-unify the country. _Ergo_, any stable “two-state solution” necessarily implies one side in control, & the other dominated & restricted. Which is not really two independent states, but one state & its subject. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/63 "2009-01-23T20:49:41Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I disagree that the divide is **only** religious. Otherwise I can be on board, now that you spelled that out. > > But that’s why spelling it out is important. I have had people say "Everyone should know that the Balfour Declaration clearly justifies . . . " and then Katie bar the door. I don’t think that Israelis would be safe in a country with a powerful Islamist political party. Is that spelled out better? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/64 "2009-01-23T20:51:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s also worth noting that depending on whose numbers you look at, there may very well be a majority of Jews in the area. Would you then support them ethnically cleansing the Palestinians since that would be preferable to a sovereign state having to continue an occupation to guarantee its safety? :rolleyes: If that is necessary & sufficient to peace, sure. Repatriate them to Egypt, Pakistan, anywhere they want where they can be free men. The sad thing is, I think the opportunity for a one-state solution in my lifetime has passed. The present arrangement, with the Jews on top & the two sides warring endlessly for domination, may come closest to giving the greatest number of people an acceptable situation. It perhaps cannot get any better than this, from the point of view of all involved.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/65 "2009-01-23T20:54:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And of course Israel will not tolerate a situation where Arabs might gain voting control. The whole point to the existence of Israel is self-determination for the Jews, who have discovered through painful history that without their own state, they tend to be scapegoats and targets in countries around the world. I await your support of states for Chicanos, Rom, Pikeys, & Wiccans. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/66 "2009-01-23T20:55:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Add to that that there is a lot of very understandable ill feeling on the Palestinians’ part & a real popular will to re-unify the country. That’s odd, as there never was a country of Palestine. How can they reunify something that never existed in the first place? If you mean have freedom of movement between the West Bank and Gaza, then yes. But that’s not the same thing. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > _Ergo_, I don’t think that word means what you think it means. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > any stable “two-state solution” necessarily implies one side in control, & the other dominated & restricted. Which is not really two independent states, but one state & its subject. There is no such implication. Two sovereign states would be independent and would each be in control of their own territory. With viable corridors of movement, they’d be in charge of their own movement as well. You’ve created some strange scenario where one has to be dominant over the other, and that has nothing in common with reality. It would be quite possible to set up two states with self-governance, territorial integrity and sovereignty. Unless you’ve gone Orwellian and you are using “domination” and “restriction” to mean “Israel would prevent any Palestinian terrorists from trying to destroy it and ethnically cleanse it.” Then yes. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > The sad thing is, I think the opportunity for a one-state solution in my lifetime has passed. There never was. The Jews wanted self determination over their own home and the Arab political leadership allied with the Nazis and wanted to commit genocide. There has never been an Israeli acceptance of dissolving their sovereign state. There’s never been a possibility of a one state “solution”. Not ever. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/67 "2009-01-23T21:01:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Or a German state? Or a French? Or an Indian vs. a Pakistani? > > States based on the American (or for that matter, Canadian) notion of _ideological_ as opposed to ethnic or cultural affiliation are the _exception_ in this world, not the rule. The problem, then, is in pretending that every ethnicity has a potential nation-state in them, & every country’s government can govern responsibly on ethnocentric principles. We may as well insist that the Gypsies are just like everyone else & that we can take Egypt & give it to them. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/68 "2009-01-23T21:02:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Apartheid would end if Gaza’s ruling party removed the destruction of Israel from its charter. When you argue vociferously for that, then maybe I’ll take arguments about ending, ‘apartheid’, seriously at all. The problem with your side of the argument is you have no expectations of the Palestinians at all. You expect the Israelis to assimilate a hostile population that wants their complete expulsion from the land. This looks like a good place to jump in. The idea of Hamas altering its charter to accept the existence of the state of Israel is silly. Hamas is not going to do that any time in the foreseeable future. They are a political organization and they depend on the support of the far-right faction of Palestinians, who would instantly abandon them if they did that. In fact, as long as a large far-right faction exists among the Palestinians, the Israelis would be foolish to take any change in the ideology of Hamas as a sign that they can let their guard down. But it is also wrong to characterize the entire Palestinian population as “a hostile population that wants their complete expulsion from the land.” I don’t believe in the existence of countries where everyone is a militant. Presumably most Palestinians could be persuaded to live peacefully under any regime that respected their rights. The problem is that if the entire area were merged into one state, it would include _all_ the people, even the ones who really do want war. What is needed is a way of getting all the people who prefer peace into one state, and all the people who prefer war into the other. Given that there has been a recent wave of Palestinians fleeing Gaza for other countries, what if Israel began encouraging these people to settle in Israel and granting them citizenship? Naturally some terrorists would try to sneak in along with them, but careful controls might allow these infiltrators to be mostly weeded out. The borders with the Gaza Strip would remain tightly closed, and the long-term goal would be to turn the Gaza Strip into walled-off enclave of extremism. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/69 "2009-01-23T21:03:00Z")
Let me reiterate that I would love to see a Palestine where it Just. Didn’t. Matter. what race/religion you were. But if the choice is… A. Repatriate the Jews (& Russians) to Og knows where B. Repatriate the Palestinians to Og knows where C. Keep the two-state solution (which seems to require Israeli control of both states in fact) D. Build one state & _then_ see if anyone has to flee Is D really so unthinkable? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/70 "2009-01-23T21:06:03Z")
P.J. O’Rouke mentioned the silliness of the idea that every group that shares a lisp and a pet name for God wants its own state. I appreciate a chance to speak frankly and without anger on this thread. I am ready to be convinced, but it seems the one-state solution is going to happen no matter what we want. The demographics make grim reading for the Israelis. At some point the Jewish State will no longer be mostly Jewish. It seems getting ready for that day rather than denying it is going to happen makes the most sense. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/71 "2009-01-23T21:06:25Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > This looks like a good place to jump in. > > The idea of Hamas altering its charter to accept the existence of the state of Israel is silly. Hamas is not going to do that any time in the foreseeable future. They are a political organization and they depend on the support of the far-right faction of Palestinians, who would instantly abandon them if they did that. In fact, as long as a large far-right faction exists among the Palestinians, the Israelis would be foolish to take any change in the ideology of Hamas as a sign that they can let their guard down. I agree. > [@](#): > > But it is also wrong to characterize the entire Palestinian population as “a hostile population that wants their complete expulsion from the land.” I don’t believe in the existence of countries where everyone is a militant. Presumably most Palestinians could be persuaded to live peacefully under any regime that respected their rights. The problem is that if the entire area were merged into one state, it would include _all_ the people, even the ones who really do want war. Politics is never about the majority, it is about dedicated minorities. > [@](#): > > What is needed is a way of getting all the people who prefer peace into one state, and all the people who prefer war into the other. Let me just reach into my bag of, “Miracle Stratification”. > [@](#): > > Given that there has been a recent wave of Palestinians fleeing Gaza for other countries, what if Israel began encouraging these people to settle in Israel and granting them citizenship? Naturally some terrorists would try to sneak in along with them, but careful controls might allow these infiltrators to be mostly weeded out. The borders with the Gaza Strip would remain tightly closed, and the long-term goal would be to turn the Gaza Strip into walled-off enclave of extremism. Heh, I think Gaza should be incorporated by Egypt, not Israel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/72 "2009-01-23T21:11:48Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I appreciate a chance to speak frankly and without anger on this thread. I am ready to be convinced, but it seems the one-state solution is going to happen no matter what we want. There is absolutely no evidence, at all, that Israel will ever accept its end as a sovereign state. Even a state with an Arab majority (which almost definitely won’t happen any time soon, if at all) would still be a Jewish state as long as the Law of Return was in force. > [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > The demographics make grim reading for the Israelis. Only if you assume that the West Bank and Gaza won’t ever be their own separate sovereign nation, or that the Arabs who live in Israel will continue to have a higher birth rate forever. > [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > At some point the Jewish State will no longer be mostly Jewish. Not true. If we look simply within the Green Line, we get a much, much different picture. It’s like claiming that if we take the entire Middle East, that Israel is already obviously a ‘one state solution’. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/73 "2009-01-23T21:13:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I think we should give back the land America stole from the Native Americans. Some of the people who were dispossessed are stil alive and living in refugee camps. Besides, someone already mentioned that WWII happened before 1948. Are you also opposed to the restitution of Jewish property seized during WWII, on the basis that this also happened long ago? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/74 "2009-01-23T21:16:46Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Some of the people who were dispossessed are stil alive and living in refugee camps. > > Besides, someone already mentioned that WWII happened before 1948. Are you also opposed to the restitution of Jewish property seized during WWII, on the basis that this also happened long ago? Yes, we cannot reorder the world based upon the idea of prior victimization. Should we give back most of France’s wealth to the Templars? How would we find them? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/75 "2009-01-23T21:16:57Z")
You are continually setting up false choices and then asking that your false choices be used as a basis for discussion. They can’t be. Not accurately. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > C. Keep the two-state solution (which seems to require Israeli control of both states in fact) Yet again, it requires nothing of the sort. A sovereign Palestinian state with freedom of movement would not be restricted from doing anything other than freely waging war on Israel. Your claim is akin to claiming that the US should absorb Canada because with two states, the US must control Canada in fact. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > D. Build one state & _then_ see if anyone has to flee > > Is D really so unthinkable? Yes, because it’s so blatantly obvious that putting Hamas within rocket range (or able to freely walk the streets of Jerusalem) would immediately lead to massive bloodshed if not civil war. It’s not at all reasonable to suggest that we ignore facts and give Palestinian terrorists total freedom of movement, and then be surprised when the inevitable happens. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Besides, someone already mentioned that WWII happened before 1948. Are you also opposed to the restitution of Jewish property seized during WWII, on the basis that this also happened long ago? This is a false dichotomy. Many people, myself included, support compensation for what was taken from the Jews. But it isn’t necessary to give them back the actual property to accomplish that. And also as mentioned, a very small fraction of Palestinians even owned the land they lived on, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/76 "2009-01-23T21:20:05Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I think Qaddafi’s sly point is, if the West is determined that religion shouldn’t dictate who holds sway in nation states, and the West is so proud of their melting pots, why not coerce an ally of the West to accept the same situation. The author I think realizes it’s abserd to believe Israel will do this, instead his OP/Ed is directed at the West and asks why we do not hold our ally to the same standards we hold ourselves. Fair enough. Let’s (the U.S.) invade Israel and force them to accept a one-state solution! Call it “Operation Shotgun Wedding”! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/77 "2009-01-23T21:22:19Z")
Even if we maintain the Green Line, the rate of natural increase of Jews is less than that of non-Jews. (Darn hard to convert, amongst other reasons.) Reservoirs for in-migration are just about drained. The number of Arabs is increasing. It is only a matter of time before they become a majority. Denial that there is a problem is not a solution. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/78 "2009-01-23T21:23:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well when the masses are ideologically/religiously hostile to the political elite who are ideologically/religiously hostile to the masses, it doesn’t make for the best situation. The entire point of Israel is that they were tired of being Dhimmis in Europe. They aren’t going to trade that for being Dhimmis in Palestine. Pretty loose use of “Dhimmi” there. The former dhimmis came from N. Africa & the Near East. In Europe, there was a range of treatments. Of course, I take your meaning. Similarly loosely, to be a Palestinian is to be dhimmi everywhere, except in one’s “own” territory, wherein one is a hostage. > [@mswas](#): > > Did they destroy infrastructure that mainly benefitted them but was built by white people before apartheid ended? If not, then we’re talking about different kinds of animals, because Hamas has torn of Israeli built infrastructure in Gaza for no reason other than it was built by Israelis. Perhaps, then, Hamas is too radicalized for its own good. That doesn’t mean we abandon the Palestinian people (who are far from all thinking that way) to the excesses of Hamas militancy. Can no one create a better situation where this kind of thinking is unattractive? Maybe one where people have their country again & don’t need the fanatics to fight for them anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/79 "2009-01-23T21:30:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t think that Israelis would be safe in a country with a powerful Islamist political party. Is that spelled out better? Do you mean “Jewish Israelis” or “all Israelis including the newly defined Muslim Israstanis?” Again, just asking for a drill down. As to the first question: spelled out [with my modification] very clearly. Agree, disagree, as one will. If you meant the second: ditto. As to both flavors, while agnostic, if at the track, I’d probably put $2 on “agreed.” Certainly as to the first. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641/80 "2009-01-23T21:31:48Z")
**foolsguinea** Let Egypt have Gaza. Why is that not a reasonable solution? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-one-state-solution/482641.md?page=5)