Islamism is totalitarian. They wouldn’t rest until it was Muslim rule. The naive notion that ethnicity should be irrelevant to a Democracy just isn’t worth as much as other arguments.
Bolding mine.
A statement worth its own thread now. Come to think of it, I’m pretty sure it’s been a thread here before.
And until now, it seems that the same petition made to Israel didn’t have much success, either, in case you didn’t notice. And no, it shouldn’t factor in anyway, because Palestinians aren’t responsible for what a random country did, just because they’re Arabs too.
This issue is between two parties, here : Palestinians and Israel. Again, why would you introduce a variety of other parties who oppressed the Jews and state that somehow it is relevant as to whether or not Palestinians are owed reparations. Again ** Arabs /= Palestinians **
I can’t see the relevance or the analogy.
Great. Then, we’re in agreement. It shouldn’t be taken into account when we’re discussing the issue of reparations owed to Palestinians.
Again, ** Jews /= Israel ** . And assuming that, say Iraq owes something to Jewish refugees and isn’t willing to pay it, it doesn’t mean that Israel shouldn’t pay reparations to Palestinians.
Such an admirable pattern and remarkable examples. I’ve discussed this issue too many times in recent threads, I’m not going to do it again, sorry. Let’s just say I don’t agree that Arab states have a particular duty to let Palestinian in.
And again, if they’re not willing to do so, it still doesn’t absolve Israel from its responsibility.
You might not saying so, but everything you say does imply that you’re making this equivalence. Otherwise, you wouldn’t say that a Israel (not “a Jew”) doesn’t have to repair a wrong done to a Palestinian (not " an Arab state") because an Arab state (not “a Palestinian”) has wronged a Jew (not “Israel”).
So, your proposal is that wrongs committed during living memory shouldn’t be repaired? And in particular when the consequences of this wrong is still in front of our eyes in the form of a refugee camp? And that because other wrongs haven’t been?
I didn’t say that the Arab states policies had nothing to do with what happened in Palestine. I said that a 85 yo man whose house and fields have been seized by Israel and who is now living in a refugee camp isn’t responsible for Egypt’s policy wrt the Jews, and that this shouldn’t be used as a pretext to deny him reparations.
Precisely, no. I was specifically asking you if you really knew, without looking it up that the situations were equivalent or were merely making an assumption.
Actually, I already had the figures handy, in a book. I was asking if you knew them when you made this statement, if you knew where these Jews were coming from, if you knew whether or not they had been oppressed, had their properties seized, were denied the right to return, and so on in the countries they were coming from. IOW, if you were just making an assumption or not.
Thanks. So, the situation, at least according to your cite, would justify the equivalence concerning Iraq. But when you mentioned equivalent figures for Palestinian refugees and for Jews who immigrated to Israel from the middle-east, it has to include all those Jewish populations. And I don’t think you can just add up all these various populations, coming from various countries, and assume they’re all one and the same, with the same level of persecutions, deprivation of property, etc… The 150 000 French Algerian Jews who moved to Israel, for instance, are a significant part of this total. And their situation wasn’t exactly comparable to that of the Iraqi Jews. Libyan and Syrian Jews, often mentioned, were a small part of this total (40,000 and 30,000).
I explain again : Palestinians are “owed” something by Israel. But you argue that since Israel let in Jews wronged by Arab states, it cancels this “debt”. IOW, Libya wronged the Jews now living in Israel, so Israel can reimburse itself by keeping Palestinian property. If it is so, why can’t Italy, who also let Libyan Jews in, for exactly the same reasons, have her part of the cake and claim something from the Palestinians too? If the Palestinians are accountable for the wrong done to Jews welcomed into Israel, why aren’t they accountable too for the wrong done to Jews welcomed into Italy?
Obviously, you aren’t going to argue that the Palestinians should pay Italy. But the reasoning is exactly the same. So, why do you feel that it is acceptable in the case of Israel?
I agree. Iraq owes to formerly Iraqi Jews. Israel owes to Palestinian refugees. It’s certainly more urgent a need for a Palestinian in a refugee camp than for an Israeli in Tel Aviv. We both know Iraq isn’t going to pay reparations to the victimized Jews anytime soon. Now, what about Israel?
From your idea that somehow they shouldn’t get any reparations because Iraq wronged Jews. IOW, Iraq does something wrong, Palestinians pay for it by not getting reparations.
Because Israel seized their houses and property, and if it hadn’t, they wouldn’t be living in a refugee camp, but in their homes?
Yes, as you said, in some cases. I once dug up figures for immigration visas granted to Palestinians in some western countries, and I’m not going to do so again, but let me tell you there aren’t many of them.
And I do not doubt that the Palestinian leadership opposes the idea. That’s perfectly logical. But don’t you think that many Palestinian who have been living for decades in a Lebanese refugee camp would be more than willing to emigrate to Canada, Palestinian leaders’ opinion notwithstanding?
As I said a number of times, western countries are very willing to state at the same time that Israel has a point and that what happens to the Palestinian population is a shame, but not at all willing to put their money where their mouths are. Westerners are more than happy to let Palestinians in a small, unstable and poor country, torn up by decades of civil war specifically aggravated by the very presence of those refugees and, on top of that, stating that somehow this country should do even more and grant them citizenship.
I just do not see how Israel can make this work. Endless war against a population that is growing bigger every year. At some point, the Custer Effect kicks in. If they (both “theys”) follow this path it will not end well.
Fundamentalist Islamism isn’t an ethnicity, as far as I know.
I’m kind of sick of dancing around the subject. The Palestinian PEOPLE elected a fundamentalist Islamist party to head their government. It’s not like Israel was any safer when they were run by corrupt secular kleptocrats.
These are guys who openly say that hte purpose of making peace is to rearm for the next battle.
Well… apparently, there still is room in Israel for Jews willing to immigrate there, isn’t there?
I mentioned many times that it’s an absolute shame that an affluent American Jew can move at any time to some place in Israel, when the person who was born in this very place is still living in a camp.
Obviously, Israel won’t ever let the refugees back into Israel. But they fucking should offer extremely generous reparations and humble apologies to people who have spent their whole lives in a refugee camp as a result of the theft of their property and the denial of their right to live in their own homeland.
Yes, it’s a tragedy, but I don’t think that’s going to fix thing. Israel does give a lot of humanitarian aid to Palestine.
The Jews need a state because Europeans kept killing them when they lived in Europe. If they are an ethnic minority and the ethnic majority hates them it will happen all over again.
A unified state should be off the table period.
As Primo Levi said, “It happened, therefore it can happen again.”
This is why, as a totally secular, non-religious Jew, I am thankful for the existance of Israel.
Ed
I am one of those affluent American Jews you appear to hold in such contempt.
Like many affluent American Jews perhaps the only reason I am so affluent is because all my great grandparents and grandparents fled their own Pale of Settlement homeland at the turn of last century. My grandmother was born on December 4th, 1898. To her dying day she had memories of terror. Her relatives who did not flee were nearly all murdered later in concentration camps.
I expect no apologies for this, nor compensation for land my great grandparents did not own. Nor I do expect a homeland in Poland somewhere today.
Maybe the even better reason I am affluent is because my grandparents didn’t spend their lives teaching me that I had the right to bomb downtown Bialystock or hate all Catholics because of what was done to them a generation ago.
I had a teacher in Hebrew school. She still had the key to her house in Yemen, the house she said was taken from her family by force. She’s living in Israel right now. Please tell where exactly she should live and why she, who remade her life in the only country that offered her citizenship, owes anyone a damned thing.
I suppose because if she does not buy off the Palestinians they will soon outnumber and overwhelm her country. I suppose because if her country follows the course it is now on it will be destroyed.
Well, first of all, there needs to be an agreement on how much their property is worth, and whether or not they actually deserve compensation if they weren’t property owners in the first place. It’s likely that even those who lived in Miri will want some sort of compensation, and that requires negotiation.
Yes, I think that as long as a negotiated settlement can be reached, a scale of compensation should be determined.
It has to be pointed out that the vast majority of Palestinians did not actually own any land. And preventing a possible fifth column in a declared war of annihilation against Jews is not the same as ‘theft’. But yes, compensation for those who immigrated elsewhere and investment in the homes of those who stayed is a perfectly valid form of reparations as far as I’m concerned.
What are you talking about, “excluded?” Part of the reparation would include money given directly and deliberately to improve the home of the Palestinians who remained or who want to return. If you want to pay so that my city can improve its public library, road, and social services, for example, I’m not going to claim that I’m being ‘excluded’.
It would be much more accurate to note that the form of compensation would be different.
It is not at all accurate to claim that it constitutes exclusion, however.
Not true, at all. It’s either cash money to those who don’t return, or an investment in their home if they do return.
To begin with, not all Palestinians owned land.
To continue, not all “Palestinians” were ethnic Palestinians. As per the UNRWA itself, anybody living in the area for as little as two years before 1948 is a Palestinian. Which means that many Egyptians, Syrians, etc… became Palestinians in 1948. Just like many Jews become Israelis, then, and later.
You expect people who weren’t Israelis at the time to compensate Palestinians via their taxes. You don’t expect Egyptians and Syrians at the time to compensate the Jews who were expelled.
It’s about double standards, and how some people agitate for Palestinian dispossessed to be compensated but can’t spare a single word for Jewish dispossessed.
Malthus already pointed out, in addition, that the precedent, for millions of refugees was a simple population transfer and in fact demanding reparations is a significant departure from how things were done in pretty much every other population swap in the 20th century.
Convenient that Arab states had their citizens living in the Levant, but since the Arabs lost a war, their citizens are now Palestinians and the Arab states can create laws prohibiting their immigrating or even working there.
He’s pointing out that the conflict was regional, and that caring about only one ethnicity betrays a strange double standard. Why should you work for justice when it only comes to Arabs who were displaced but not say that we must also, at the same time, work for justice for Jews who were displaced?
They were both expelled during the same time period. Only one group has any backing for reparations. Why, do you think, that is?
But am 80 (hell, why not 99?) year old Russian grandma who is an immigrant to Israel should have her taxes go to pay for Palestinian reparations.
I currently rent an apartment. If I have to leave and the landlord won’t re-rent the apartment to me, what reparations am I entitled to?
While I’m at it, you also want modern Israelis to pay reparations to Palestinians for the actions of (I assume?) the Israeli leadership during and around the 1948 war. Why, then, do you not want the Palestinians to pay reparations for the damage done by their Nazi allied leadership during and around the 1948 war?
Just as an example.
Note, I’m not disagreeing that some sort of negotiated settlement isn’t due, or that it doesn’t have massive pragmatic benefits. It’s just curious that you seem to want what you view as justice, but only for some people.
Why?
Wasn’t “The One-State Solution” the title of a Sherlock Holmes movie?
And please tell me where exactly should live anybody else who is persecuted on this planet? Are they all allowed to settle shop in a place that has been stolen from someone else? Are they all welcome in Israel?
When you’ll propose to me a solution that is correct for everybody in a similar situation, not just people you have close ties with, like your teacher, you’ll have a case. At the moment, you’re just saying : “people I feel strongly for must be allowed to do so”, which really isn’t particularly convincing because I personally don’t feel strongly for them, including your teacher.
If I meet tomorrow a Tibetan nun who still has the keys of her house in Tibet but might be killed if she comes back, are you going to agree that I can kick you teacher out of Israel, install her (your teacher) in a refugee camp to spend the rest of her life, and put my Tibetan friend in her house? Why or why not? What makes your friends special?
Seeing as how pretty much every spot on Earth has changed hands at one point or another through conflict, I’d wager “yes” is the answer. Even Hamas’ charter, in point of fact, makes clear that they base their claim to the land on the fact that Muslims took it by force.
How is it that the Arab states persecuted the Jews, then shut the Palestinians out & said, “you are not & never will be citizens of our countries,” & you blame the Palestinians?
Aren’t both Palestinians & Jews victims of the Arab states?
Or do you maintain that all Palestinians are really agents of the Arab League?
And what about reparations for having spend their lives in a refugee camp instead of living in their homeland? It’s not just about property, but about having your life trashed. Not only home-owners deserve compensation.
And if it takes 50 more years, too bad for them? Why should indemnification be dependant on a permanent settlement?
Providing it sufficiently generous to make up for the wrong caused, which goes beyond simple property loss. Also, it should include a clear recognition that its a compensation for the wrong done. Wrongdoings must be admitted and dealt with.
I missed the part about Palestine getting money.
Irrelevant to the part of my post you were responding to. And anyway, again, being left without a land and condemned to a life in a camp isn’t exactly not incurring any damage.
I again fail to see how this is relevant to the part of my post you quoted. It still doesn’t make every Palestinian responsible for whatever wrong any Syrian or Egyptian has done, just because they’re both Arabs.
Hmm…no. As you can see, I’m consistent. I expect Israel to compensate the wrong Israel done to Palestinians and Egypt to compensate the wrong Egypt done to Jews. I don’t expect Israelis who immigrated from France in 1948 to pay French taxes, either.
No. It’s not about double standards. I’ve heard those arguments too often to believe that. It’s about mixing all Arabs in a big bag labelled “Arabs” and assuming that the Arab here can be held responsible for what the Arab there has done, or be held responsible for his well-being, because, after all, they’re both Arabs.
And we all know that everything that has been done during the 20th century is an excellent example to follow (besides the fact that people “transferred”, in this case, are still in a camp and don’t have a country).
Unfortunately for your argument, the previous cases have been settled. Indian Muslims have been living in Pakistan for quite a long time, and ethnic German from Poland in Germany for equally as long. But Palestinians are still in camps, and the situation still isn’t settled. And regardless of the opinion of my forefathers as to how population transfers should be settled, I’d rather have issues that happen in my lifetime being settled in a just way.
I said I already discussed this issue way too often recently.
Let’s me think about it…Hmmm…could it possibly be because we still hear every other day about Palestinian refugees, while on the other hand we haven’t seen a Jewish refugee camp in quite a while?
Can you point to me the thread recently opened about the situation of the Jewish refugees and mention the numerous posters who refused to back their claims for reparations?
99 also works. However, someone younger than 80 is unlikely to have had his fields seized in 1948, don’t you think?
As for grandma, yes. It’s usually how it works. You pay taxes in the country you’re a citizen of. If your country owes reparations or has debts, you’re rarely off the hook just because you immigrated recently.
So Arabs were “renters” and Jews “landlords” in Palestine, according to you? Interesting.
If you argue for the suppression of all borders so that persecuted people from everywhere can settle anywhere they feel like, it’s indeed a sensible answer.
If on the other hand, you’re stating that since invasions and land grabbing have been the norm in the past we should keep this nice tradition going, I think I’m going to disagree
(and when I think about it, your answer completely justifies the desire of the Hamas to take over Israel. I certainly hope that in the future you’ll abstain from criticizing them)
Clair: again, you show a rather odd and one sided view of history. If they’re largely kept in refugee camps because the various Arab nations won’t let them out, why does Israel owe them reparations? Why aren’t you asking Lebanon to pay reparations to Palestinians in Lebanon?
In addition, under the 4th Geneva Convention, an occupying power is perfectly justified in interning a populace if they pose a threat to its security. That it would be obligated to pay reparations for that is untenable. But as I pointed out, there is a pragmatic need for reparations. Which is why they should be reached via a process of negotiation. Otherwise, who gets to determine what value is placed on living in a refugee camp? Who gets to decide? Abbas? Haniyeh? Prince Bandar? You?
And they haven’t been condemned to a life in a refugee camp solely by Israel or the Arabs. You’re making claims in a vacuum and ignoring history. Part of the reason that there isn’t a sovereign Palestine is largely because Palestinian leaders have missed many opportunities. Israel should be financially liable for that, too?
As for you missing the part about Palestinians getting money, that was the part about billions being required for, among other things, improving the quality of life and creating more jobs for the refugees. It wouldn’t make sense to do that for Arabs who were already living in comfort in other nations, right?
And no, you don’t seem to be particularly consistent since, in context, this was a regional conflict and you want to resolve various bits of it piecemeal, or not at all (I believe you suggested petitioning certain regimes as a viable strategy, which would amount to no solution in a great many cases). The point, and one that Malthus made well, is that in context great population shifts have often occurred as the result of war and the precedent, time and again, was that there wasn’t compensation. And, additionally, that the Jews’ confiscated property could be used to pay fund the Palestinians’ economic development. As long as the past wrongs of the 1948 conflict are being addressed, they should be addressed in toto so as to come to a lasting solution. Focusing on only one group while, effectively, saying to another “I dunno, go piss in the wind about it” is not just.
You’ve also ignored the fact that, by your own standards, the Palestinians have to pay reparations for the crimes their leadership committed. You want even recent immigrants to Israel to have to pay reparations to the Palestinians, but have not spared a word about how by those same standards, the Palestinians should have to pay reparations for their own leadership’s actions during the Mandate period. Why have you ignored this?
And no, the previous issues have not been ‘settled’. They were simply tabled. People, collectively, lost vast sums of money and property. There was no settlement, it was simply taken as the ‘cost of doing business’. And yet again, you point to Palestinians being in camps as a reason why Israel alone owes them money. And yet, it was Arab regimes and the Palestinian’s own leadership who have also kept them in camps, both de facto and de jure.
And you haven’t seen a Jewish refugee camp because Israel absorbed the cost of their repatriation. There were, in fact, Jewish refugee camps in Israel for quite some time before they could all be settled. I’m not sure why your double standards would say that they don’t deserve reparations because someone already had to pay to resettle them.
Your request for a ‘counter thread’ is also a bit disingenuous, don’t you think? Are you really unaware that in the global context, there is a massive and substantial movement for either the Palestinian “right of return” or for reparations, but the Jews who were displaced by the same conflict are very, very rarely mentioned?
On the issue of land ownership and property rights, the fact is that waste land and Miri land was state owned, not privately owned. Not ever. Only Mulk was privately owned. And the vast majority of Palestinians lived on Miri, not Mulk. That made them renters. As the regional sovereign fell, and the next regional sovereign relinquished control and there was never a sovereign Palestinian state on that land, there is no ownership claim to Miri land based on property laws. Miri land that Israel annexed, as it is a sovereign power, became Israeli state land. These are just facts. As should be obvious, Jews were not the ruling power of the Ottoman Empire, or the British Empire, and thus were not the lords-of-the-land while Palestinians were still living on Miri.
Meanwhile, I asked a question designed to get you to honestly answer what rights you believe a non-owner of land has if they’re not allowed to live on that land. In my case, because I rent an apartment, I used that example. Your response was a non sequitor at best. Would you care to answer, then, as to what rights non-ownership of land confers to renters who aren’t able to live on it?
One final note: no, pointing out that it’s impossible to settle anywhere that hasn’t been “stolen” doesn’t mean I’m justifying Hamas’ desire to ethnically cleanse Israel. It’s a simple statement of fact. You cannot go anywhere on the planet, including but limited to France, that hasn’t been “stolen” from someone. A statement of fact certainly doesn’t “completely” justify Hamas’ goals, either.
That’s just weird.
It’d be helpful if you responded to things I’ve actually said rather than beating up a strawman.
That’s all I’m going to say at this point. Quote what I’ve actually said and respond to it if you’d like to debate my actual positions.