# The Ongoing Death of Free Speech: Prominent ACLU Lawyer Cheers Suppression of a New Book **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913 "2020-11-18T20:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/281 "2020-11-20T19:28:33Z")
Not quite. I’m willing to give a regular conservative contributor (Greenwald, for example) the room to publish his dissertation on “Lizardmen from space”. Let’s hear his best argument. Then let’s dismantle his argument. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/282 "2020-11-20T19:28:46Z")
Where did I say that? Greenwald is now writing and advocating on his own. I think that’s fine. If I owned a paper, and he worked there, I’d fire him based on his terrible reporting and dishonesty. But he’s still free to write for himself and post it on the internet, as much as he wants. I’ve never advocated for silencing people from writing or posting whatever they want on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/283 "2020-11-20T19:29:17Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > I actually think this is a much better example of the problem with “cancel culture” and is more upsetting to me than Glen Greenwald’s concern with Strangio calling ideas dangerous - the fact that Strangio ended up self-censoring (by deleting the tweet) is EXACTLY the sort of problem that cancel culture critics claim to be worried about. I think Greenwald failing to comment on this either shows he’s hypocritical, or has significant blinders on. Personally I think it’s a bad thing that Strangio received calls for him to be for his tweet, and that he took the threats seriously enough to feel the need to self-censor. To me it’s a textbook case of cancel culture in action. I’ll be honest, I’m not super-concerned with this. The ACLU is an organization with a very clear mission. If one of their top staffers is saying things publicly that undermine that mission, and they want to disassociate themselves from him, I’m okay with that, _as a process_. In this particular case, I’m not okay with it _as content_, because I think what he said was hunky-dory and the objections to it are bullshit. It’s not the right-wing culture of canceling people to which I object: it’s the specific instance of someone facing consequences for saying something good to which I object. By way of analogy, I don’t object to tackling people who are doing something dangerous to stop the dangerous thing. That’s a reasonable procedure. But if you say, “He was criticizing the president, that’s dangerous!” I’m gonna think you’re being an asshole, whereas if you say, “He was waving a loaded gun around in a daycare, that’s dangerous!” I’m gonna think your actions were pretty reasonable. The content matters. We gotta pay attention to what’s actually happening. That said, there are some people who claim to be very concerned with process. **Demontree** and Greenwald appear to be in the group making that claim. I appreciate this article, and this OP, for the clarity, that the process isn’t remotely what bothers them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/284 "2020-11-20T19:30:14Z")
If you had a media outlet, would you be willing to give him room on it to say his piece? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/285 "2020-11-20T19:33:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t think that that is what @iiandyiiii is saying at all. > > He’s just saying that they shouldn’t have to have Greenwald on their shows to debunk him. No one should have to promote him. > > Who is the “they” in your “you think they should make Greenwald put a sock in it.”? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Where did I say that? Greenwald is now writing and advocating on his own. I think that’s fine. If I owned a paper, and he worked there, I’d fire him based on his terrible reporting and dishonesty. But he’s still free to write for himself and post it on the internet, as much as he wants. I’ve never advocated for silencing people from writing or posting whatever they want on the internet. I think we’re caught up in a name. Substitute Greenwald for another conservative making a case for something less absurd than lizardmen. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/286 "2020-11-20T19:34:03Z")
I notice that you have dodged the question about whether or not you agree with the books transphobic basis. You are making a great deal of fuss about this book, which you claim you havent read. 🤨 🤔 You seem to ignore our responses that professional level reviews in say, the NYT, etc are only done for bestsellers or books of great importance. If the NYT or any other paper, etc published a review for every single book/author that wanted one, every single issue would be the size of the Sunday Times, and contain nothing but page after page after page of book reviews. Thousands of books are published DAILY. So, the bit about "refusing reviews’ is just plain business and bogus. They simply CANT publish reviews for even a hundredth of books published. Every trans reviewer has stated the book is transphobic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/287 "2020-11-20T19:35:36Z")
Actually, it has been proven that _in politics_, you _ignore_ crazy accusations, you dont deny them. Denying them gives them more attention and more plausibility. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/288 "2020-11-20T19:36:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s clear that the OP isn’t interested in free speech but rather is only interested in being able to disseminate convenient messages, regardless of their truthfulness. Convenient? I’d use a different word, myself. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/289 "2020-11-20T19:36:44Z")
The absurdity is the case. If there is a conservative talking about tax cuts, that’s policy. I may disagree, but taxes are a real thing. Tax cuts are a real thing. You want me to substitute Hannity or Carlson? I’ll say pretty much the same thing I say about Greenwald. I would not give them space in my media outlet to say their piece, and the only attention I would give to them is to debunk claims that have gotten traction. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/290 "2020-11-20T19:37:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you had a media outlet, would you be willing to give him room on it to say his piece? If I thought the idea he was promoting was dangerously false and it was getting enough traction in right wing media, then yes, I’d consider exposing his view in an opinion column and letting people respond to it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/291 "2020-11-20T19:38:09Z")
Okay - Douthat. Having Douthat on your show is fine with me; he’s not a regular liar. Same with Erick Erickson. Same with Rod Dreher. Same with Pat Buchanan. On the other hand, NBC should stop paying Hugh Hewitt, because he constantly lies. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/292 "2020-11-20T19:39:22Z")
Nope, seems like you have covered it pretty well! 😆 😅 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/293 "2020-11-20T19:40:01Z")
There are a lot of people that buy into the flat earth nonsense. Would you publish a column claiming that the earth is flat and let people respond to it? This is the motto of Fox, “We report, you decide.” We’ve seen how well that worked out. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/294 "2020-11-20T19:42:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > It’s clear that the OP isn’t interested in free speech but rather is only interested in being able to disseminate convenient messages, regardless of their truthfulness. > > Convenient? I’d use a different word, myself. I’m happy to entertain more colorful descriptions. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/295 "2020-11-20T19:42:59Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Pizza exists. > Murdered children exist, sorta. > Therefore pizza topped with chopped up murdered children must also exist. Still better than anchovies. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/296 "2020-11-20T19:45:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay - Douthat. Having Douthat on your show is fine with me; he’s not a regular liar. Same with Erick Erickson. Same with Rod Dreher. Same with Pat Buchanan. On the other hand, NBC should stop paying Hugh Hewitt, because he constantly lies. I guess I’m less hung up on who’s telling the lie but how dangerous the lie is and how much traction it’s getting on the right. Which isn’t to say that I’d extend that courtesy to someone like Roger Stone. My tolerance has limits. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/297 "2020-11-20T19:48:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There are a lot of people that buy into the flat earth nonsense. Would you publish a column claiming that the earth is flat and let people respond to it? > > This is the motto of Fox, “We report, you decide.” We’ve seen how well that worked out. I would not. I have standards, after all. And Fox has no standing as a trusted news source. ETA: there is no reason to continue to allow the re-telling of thrice told & debunked tales. No matter the support it may continue to have. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/298 "2020-11-20T19:55:25Z")
No, it really isn’t. Lizard Jews from space is absurd on its face and needs no debunking. Corruption and laptops are both common and plausible, and therefore do need to be debunked if untrue. Has Greenwald said anything equivalent to the former? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/299 "2020-11-20T19:56:38Z")
He’s said things in the same ballpark – like that there is something to the laptop story. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/300 "2020-11-20T19:58:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > {…} Corruption and laptops are both common and plausible {…} As are dead children and pizza. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913.md?page=16)