# The Ongoing Death of Free Speech: Prominent ACLU Lawyer Cheers Suppression of a New Book **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913 "2020-11-18T20:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/481 "2020-11-25T16:11:11Z")
I’m going to post this again. > [@YWTF](#): > > Damore used gender stereotypes to argue that women just can’t hack it in STEM. Like many people, this makes him guilty of sexism. A person who defends the use of gender stereotypes to classify themselves (and other people) as men and women is guilty of the same atrocious thing. Even if I disagree with these views, I think all of this stuff should be considered worthy of debate. What I’m seeing right now is that some opinions are considered enemy action and are immediate grounds for condemnation, and some opinions are being actively promulgated in the media, uncritically. The fact that there is little daylight between these two sets of opinions doesn’t seem to matter. The presence or absence of scientific evidence doesn’t seem to really matter either. What does seem to matter is the political affiliation of the purveyor of these opinions. I’m as progressive as they come and yet somehow I can see this political slant clearly. How can this problem even be combatted when the most biased of us are in denial about it? This question has been worrying me for a while, not just in the context of free speech but also democracy in general. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/482 "2020-11-25T16:26:22Z")
You’re avoiding the question. Are the ideas he wrote about misogynistic or not, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/483 "2020-11-25T16:36:41Z")
Which ideas? He wrote about a lot of stuff. Some of his writing was misogynistic. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/484 "2020-11-25T16:41:03Z")
I asked you earlier and you said Damore’s assertion that women are inherently biologically less interested or less capable at engineering or computer jobs. Do you consider that assertion inherently misogynistic? What about the scientists who are studying this question or others related to it? Also chauvinistic assholes? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/485 "2020-11-25T16:45:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So why all this weirdness about insisting this isn’t about Damore, when what we’re specifically talking about is what Damore wrote and what happened to him? Because as I was saying from the beginning it isn’t about Damore. Or only tangentially so. But you and others continue to want to argue that it is. Not sure what else I can say to move you from that position. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/486 "2020-11-25T16:47:21Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I asked you earlier and you said Damore’s assertion that women are inherently biologically less interested or less capable at engineering or computer jobs. Do you consider that assertion inherently misogynistic? Chauvinistic, I’d say. > [@](#): > > What about the scientists who are studying this question or others related to it? Also chauvinistic assholes? Study anything you want. Find some actual facts that suggest these chauvinistic assumptions are based on more than societal misogyny and chauvinism, and I’d certainly consider revising my opinion. I’m unaware of any such facts. Right now, the only basis I’m aware of to believe that women are inferior in inherent ability or interest in STEM jobs is societal/cultural misogyny/chauvinism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/487 "2020-11-25T16:48:13Z")
The parts about Damore are about Damore. Those are the parts that I’m focusing on Damore for. Right now, we’re discussing the assertions made by Damore. Is it okay with you if I focus on Damore and what he wrote when the topic of the conversation is the writings of Damore? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/488 "2020-11-25T16:50:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it okay with you if I focus on Damore and what he wrote when the topic of the conversation is the writings of Damore? I’m trying to talk about whether certain ideas are acceptable to discuss and you keep dragging it back to ‘but Damore is an asshole’. It’s a distraction from the main topic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/489 "2020-11-25T16:51:07Z")
I’m just answering your questions here. You asked about Damore’s writings, and I answered. Then you asked about science in general, and I answered that too. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/490 "2020-11-25T16:51:11Z")
Clearly we have very different understanding of what ideas @DemonTree and @YWTF are attempting to debate. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/491 "2020-11-25T16:55:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Study anything you want. Find some actual facts that suggest these chauvinistic assumptions are based on more than societal misogyny and chauvinism, and I’d certainly consider revising my opinion. I’m unaware of any such facts. Right now, the only basis I’m aware of to believe that women are inferior in inherent ability or interest in STEM jobs is societal/cultural misogyny/chauvinism. They’ve found plenty of actual facts. Enough to consider statistical differences between the sexes at least plausible. Since you are perfectly willing to believe in biological differences when it does suit your agenda, I don’t find your denials very convincing. And did you intend to imply that less interest in STEM jobs makes people inferior? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/492 "2020-11-25T16:58:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They’ve found plenty of actual facts. Enough to consider statistical differences between the sexes at least plausible. Many things might be “plausible”. These are hypotheses, at best, right now. When we can identify the genes for interest in STEM jobs, and ability in STEM jobs, then we’ll be able to definitively say whether different groups (like men and women) have different inherent likelihoods for these genes. Until then, it’s all hypothesizing. > [@](#): > > Since you are perfectly willing to believe in biological differences when it does suit your agenda, I don’t find your denials very convincing. I’ve never denied the existence of biological differences. I just don’t assume they explain anything and everything, especially not things that are also faced with a crushing, millenia-long weight of social/cultural patriarchal values and teachings. Certain things can factually be measured quantitatively – such as physical size and strength. Interest and ability in STEM jobs cannot. > [@](#): > > And did you intend to imply that less interest in STEM jobs makes people inferior? No. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/493 "2020-11-25T17:00:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve never denied the existence of biological differences. I just don’t assume they explain anything and everything, especially not things that are also faced with a crushing, millenia-long weight of social/cultural patriarchal values and teachings. Then it’s a good thing nobody here is saying that either. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/494 "2020-11-25T17:01:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Then it’s a good thing nobody here is saying that either. Even Damore wasn’t saying it explained everything. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/495 "2020-11-25T17:18:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Many things might be “plausible”. These are hypotheses, at best, right now. When we can identify the genes for interest in STEM jobs, and ability in STEM jobs, then we’ll be able to definitively say whether different groups (like men and women) have different inherent likelihoods for these genes. Until then, it’s all hypothesizing. I don’t think that will work, since men and women have almost entirely the same genes. Rather, the presence or absence of the SRY gene dictates whether and how they are expressed. A lot of this will be through the influence of testosterone, especially prenatally - which is also something that has been researched. And alternative theories can be tested, too. That’s what some of those studies I linked to did. If patriarchal values and teachings are the cause, then more egalitarian countries should have more women in STEM jobs; they found the opposite. I don’t expect to convince you. One may as well try to convince a creationist of the reality of evolution. But I am very disturbed that you think supporting one side of this debate deserves social opprobrium, because you don’t like the conclusions it may lead to. This is the problem I have with the left. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/496 "2020-11-25T17:27:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t think that will work, since men and women have almost entirely the same genes. Rather, the presence or absence of the SRY gene dictates whether and how they are expressed. A lot of this will be through the influence of testosterone, especially prenatally - which is also something that has been researched. So show how testosterone affects these things, scientifically. Let’s see the data. Not suppositions, but actual data. This won’t be easy – how does one measure inherent interest, or inherent ability, separated from cultural and societal influence, in STEM fields? Since it’s not easy, people shouldn’t make such claims without this actual data. Making a hypothesis is fine with me. But claiming that this is so, without evidence? Fuck those people. That doesn’t mean “these people are the scum of the Earth and aren’t worth the dirt on my shoe”. That means “these people made a really dumb mistake and should feel bad and ashamed about that mistake”. Fuck those people until they realize the dumb things they’re saying and doing. And telling them this to their face is part of the process. I’ve seen it work in person. Hell, it’s worked on me. > [@](#): > > And alternative theories can be tested, too. That’s what some of those studies I linked to did. If patriarchal values and teachings are the cause, then more egalitarian countries should have more women in STEM jobs; they found the opposite. How is “egalitarian” measured? Maybe their laws are more egalitarian. But what about their culture and society? What are the little girls and little boys taught, both directly and indirectly? > [@](#): > > I don’t expect to convince you. One may as well try to convince a creationist of the reality of evolution. Two people on this board, IIRC, have compared me to a creationist. You, and a guy who insisted that black people are inherently genetically inferior in intelligence. Because I said the same thing to him that I’m saying to you – there’s no evidence for the claims you’re making, and making these sorts of claims without real and very strong evidence is bigoted. This isn’t in a vacuum – this is in a society with tons of direct and indirect, visible and invisible, in your face and behind your back, white supremacism, misogyny, and more. We should be very careful with these claims. This isn’t talking about which populations have a greater tendency towards freckles. This is about the very sort of claims that have been used to justify slavery, rape, and genocide. > [@](#): > > But I am very disturbed that you think supporting one side of this debate deserves social opprobrium, because you don’t like the conclusions it may lead to. This is the problem I have with the left. I think making such claims without good evidence deserves social opprobrium. Supporting the “blacks are dumber” side deserves social opprobrium. Supporting the “women are inferior at STEM” side deserves social opprobrium. Even if one dresses it up in flowery, science-y sounding language. There’s no actual evidence for either claim. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/497 "2020-11-25T17:58:53Z")
Modding: @iiandyiii and @DemonTree: Why don’t you start a thread about Damore. And @DemonTree, please tone it down. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/498 "2020-11-25T18:01:34Z")
You left out an “i”, Hari! ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/499 "2020-11-25T18:32:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So show how testosterone affects these things, scientifically. Let’s see the data. Here’s a summary of the data: > **[Can Sex Differences in Science Be Tied to the Long Reach of Prenatal...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230041/)** > > Brain organization theory posits a cascade of physiological and behavioral changes initiated and shaped by prenatal hormones. Recently, this theory has been associated with outcomes including gendered toy preference, 2D/4D digit ratio, personality... > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But claiming that this is so, without evidence? Fuck those people. And who’s doing that? I’ve given you plenty of evidence, you’ve shown none. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How is “egalitarian” measured? Maybe their laws are more egalitarian. But what about their culture and society? What are the little girls and little boys taught, both directly and indirectly? I linked to the study; if you want to argue that, you can go and look at which countries had more women in STEM and tell us how their cultures and societies are more egalitarian than Europe and America. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think making such claims without good evidence deserves social opprobrium. So does [Simon Baron-Cohen](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/autism-extreme-male-brain-theory-research-study-masculine-traits-a8631171.html) deserve social opprobrium? How about [Alice H. Eagly](https://theconversation.com/profiles/alice-h-eagly-227152) or [David P Schmitt](https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/articles/201711/the-truth-about-sex-differences?collection=1108550)? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/500 "2020-11-25T18:39:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Supporting the “women are inferior at STEM” side deserves social opprobrium. I want to point out something else, too. Why do you assume sex differences between men and women necessarily imply that women are inferior? Why is it so important that women be good at STEM? Probably because you’ve internalised the idea that professions and areas where men dominate are more important and worthy than those where women dominate. They’re more valued not because they are more useful or more inherently difficult, but because men do them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913.md?page=26)