# The Ongoing Death of Free Speech: Prominent ACLU Lawyer Cheers Suppression of a New Book **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913 "2020-11-18T20:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/81 "2020-11-19T15:45:04Z")
Congrats, I guess. You seem to be one of the few people who actually gives a shit about giant corporations controlling what we see. Having Amazon tell us what to think is not actually better than having Murdoch telling us. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/82 "2020-11-19T15:47:00Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > {…} giant corporations controlling what we see. Having Amazon tell us what to think {…} Those Gish horses are so hard to ride. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/83 "2020-11-19T15:49:22Z")
And the evidence that Amazon is controlling what we think is that they have the book on their platform and are selling it? I don’t think “tell us what to think” means what you think it means. (with apologies to The Princess Bride for stealing their bit) ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/84 "2020-11-19T16:00:03Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > And yet the evidence that presenting both sides leads people recognizing the lies and propaganda is that it isn’t so. The media has been presenting both sides of climate change, as an example, for quite some time. And how’s that going? Should the media present both sides of the “Q” conspiracy? Should the media present both sides of the laughly inept Hunter Biden laptop? Treating obvious lies and propaganda as something that needs to be seriously discussed makes the lies and propaganda seem potentially serious. > > Again, for the most part, none of the lies and propaganda are actually being removed. They’re simply be marked as lies and propaganda. So what’s the problem? The lies are made available, but people are being told that they’re lies. Who gets to decide what is lies and propaganda? Google, Amazon, the US government? I don’t agree the media has been presenting ‘both sides’ of climate change. I’ve never heard the best arguments of the people who disagree with it. I only know vague outlines of QAnon and Hunter Biden’s laptop. If I get curious and want to know more I’ll have to go to the websites promoting those things, and there I’ll (probably) be exposed to more lies and propaganda. I agree we should be teaching critical thinking, but do you think fake news, conspiracy theories etc are more or less common now than 10 years ago? Ignoring this stuff is only letting it grow. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/85 "2020-11-19T16:02:39Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Ohh, that’s what this is all about! No, it really isn’t. I haven’t even read the book. I only looked into the subject in the first place because of the efforts to censor it, and I wonder how many other people do the same with different issues. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/86 "2020-11-19T16:07:52Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > do you think fake news, conspiracy theories etc are more or less common now than 10 years ago? It has grown because it has been permitted to be presented without being challenged, in particular on social media. People on social media are not being exposed to the lie and the rebuttal, but only the lie [1,2,3]. Social media companies are finally realizing the enormous social harm that these lies are having, and have taken limited step to combat them. “QAnon” has been pretty much banned (and that’s a good thing), but other lies and propaganda have simply be marked with fact checking or a click through. I don’t necessarily trust them completely but we have to start somewhere, and that somewhere is on social media where the problem primarily exists. 1. Spohr, D. (2017). Fake news and ideological polarization: Filter bubbles and selective exposure on social media. _Business Information Review_ , _34_ (3), 150-160. 2. Seargeant, P., & Tagg, C. (2019). Social media and the future of open debate: A user-oriented approach to Facebook’s filter bubble conundrum. _Discourse, Context & Media_ , _27_ , 41-48. 3. Kaakinen, M., Sirola, A., Savolainen, I., & Oksanen, A. (2020). Shared identity and shared information in social media: development and validation of the identity bubble reinforcement scale. _Media Psychology_ , _23_ (1), 25-51. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/87 "2020-11-19T16:09:11Z")
Still no real evidence that there have been any efforts to censor it in any meaningful way. As mentioned a few times, anyone can go and buy the book right now on Amazon, the world’s largest bookstore. As an experiment, I’ll go paste a link to the book on Facebook (none of my friends will buy it so I’m not promoting it) with the disclaimer that this is an experiment. Care to hazard a guess how long it takes Facebook to remove my link? I’ll put 500 quatloos on never. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/88 "2020-11-19T16:13:13Z")
‘Censor it in any meaningful way’ should be trans, hehe, translated as ‘are not promoting the book sufficiently’. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/89 "2020-11-19T16:14:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t agree the media has been presenting ‘both sides’ of climate change. I’ve never heard the best arguments of the people who disagree with it. By the way, with respect to this, there are no best arguments for those that disagree with it, because the simple scientific fact is that climate change is reality. The “disagree with it side” is all lies and propaganda, and has been for years and years and years. So everything that the media has presented on the disagree side has been complete and utter BS. But because they gave both sides equal air time it made it seem like there was actually some controversy, when in reality there was none. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/90 "2020-11-19T16:19:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t agree the media has been presenting ‘both sides’ of climate change. I’ve never heard the best arguments of the people who disagree with it. What a great idea for a new thread-You could show us those best arguments that have been suppressed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/91 "2020-11-19T16:20:30Z")
The OP reflects a basic misunderstanding of what free speech and the marketplace of ideas is. Unless E is willing to engage in a conversation about this misconception, I see little point to this conversation except as a way for the OP to spread more propaganda, which is all this is. For example: Free speech includes the idea that I don’t have to repeat your message just because you said it. I don’t have to treat your message with any respect or regard. Similarly the marketplace of ideas doesn’t work unless people are free to ignore, criticize, condemn, or mock other people’s ideas. It’s not about giving every idea, good or bad, true or false, the same level of uncritical coverage. It’s also not about giving “the other side” equal access to all platforms. Indeed I argue that when one side just spits lies and ridiculous propaganda, it’s not a legitimate “side” at all. It’s disingenuous perversion of the conversation calculates to do nothing more than confuse and mislead, not present a rational position in the marketplace of ideas. So even if you were “covering all sides,” you should ignore the blatant bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/92 "2020-11-19T16:21:42Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Congrats, I guess. You seem to be one of the few people who actually gives a shit about giant corporations controlling what we see. Having Amazon tell us what to think is not actually better than having Murdoch telling us. Maybe you should start a thread on this separate topic, if that’s what you’re most interested in? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/93 "2020-11-19T16:22:27Z")
I could not agree more. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/94 "2020-11-19T16:44:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The OP reflects a basic misunderstanding of what free speech and the marketplace of ideas is. Unless E is willing to engage in a conversation about this misconception, I see little point to this conversation except as a way for the OP to spread more propaganda, which is all this is. Are you claiming it’s me or Glenn Greenwald who doesn’t understand free speech and the marketplace of ideas? > [@Acsenray](#): > > Similarly the marketplace of ideas doesn’t work unless people are free to ignore, criticize, condemn, or mock other people’s ideas. It’s not about giving every idea, good or bad, true or false, the same level of uncritical coverage. It’s also not about giving “the other side” equal access to all platforms. It also doesn’t work if people are not free to discuss, criticise, or endorse some or all of other people’s ideas. This is what I object to. Also, it’s a very simplistic view that there are only two sides to any issue. The reality is that everyone has a slightly different viewpoint, and the ‘orthodox’ view may be more or less incorrect while the most extreme opposite view is still completely wrong. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe you should start a thread on this separate topic, if that’s what you’re most interested in? It’s not. It’s part of the problem but IMO the lesser part. Leftists supporting or shrugging at censorship is the real problem, because then there is no will to end these monopolies. Rather they want to increase their power to control the information we see. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/95 "2020-11-19T16:48:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s not. It’s part of the problem but IMO the lesser part. Leftists supporting or shrugging at censorship is the real problem, because then there is no will to end these monopolies. Rather they want to increase their power to control the information we see. “Leftists” aren’t doing this, by and large. Greenwald subscribes to a similar fantasy version of liberals made popular by right wing radio, Tucker Carlson, and the like. Criticism isn’t censorship. Business decisions (aka choosing what media to review, promote, etc.) aren’t censorship. Protests aren’t censorship. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/96 "2020-11-19T16:49:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Leftists supporting or shrugging at censorship is the real problem, because then there is no will to end these monopolies. Where was the censorship again? - Refusing to review the book isn’t censorship. - Refusing to advertise the book isn’t censorship. To again paraphrase The Princess Bride. I don’t censorship means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/97 "2020-11-19T16:50:50Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It also doesn’t work if people are not free to discuss, criticise, or endorse some or all of other people’s ideas. Who exactly isn’t free to discuss, criticize or endorse? Amazon? Twitter? If you had an actual physical bulletin board on your lawn, who gets to decide what gets posted on it? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/98 "2020-11-19T16:54:03Z")
Yeah they do. If you cannot exercise a right in any meaningful way it doesn’t exist. Plus a certain baker would take exception to being free to censor at will. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/99 "2020-11-19T16:55:45Z")
But they can exercise that right. There are lots of other platforms, or they can make their own. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/100 "2020-11-19T16:56:45Z")
Now that is a good idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913.md?page=6)