# The opera ain't over ...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [April 13, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659 "2012-04-13T13:58:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@frubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frubes)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/1 "2012-04-13T13:58:37Z")
I’ve always believed this was attributed to the great, late Casey Stengal, the long time manager of the New Yawk Yankees.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/2 "2012-04-13T14:52:49Z")
> [@frubes](#):
>
> I’ve always believed this was attributed to the great, late Casey Stengal, the long time manager of the New Yawk Yankees.
Would you be referring to [this column?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/748/whats-the-origin-of-the-opera-aint-over-till-the-fat-lady-sings)
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/3 "2012-04-13T15:05:32Z")
According to [The Phrase Finder](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/it-aint-over-until-the-fat-lady-sings.html),
> [@](#):
>
> Cook was preceded however by US sports presenter Ralph Carpenter, in a broadcast, reported in The Dallas Morning News, March 1976:
>
> Bill Morgan (Southwest Conference Information Director): “Hey, Ralph, this… is going to be a tight one after all.”
> Ralph Carpenter (Texas Tech Sports Information Director): Right. The opera ain’t over until the fat lady sings."
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/4 "2012-04-13T15:17:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> According to [The Phrase Finder](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/it-aint-over-until-the-fat-lady-sings.html),
This info is backed up by _The Yale Book Of Quotations_, which gives the date it was in the paper as March 10, 1976.
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### Author:  [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/5 "2012-04-13T15:19:08Z")
“It ain’t over 'til it’s over” is often attributed to Yogi Berra. I don’t find anything about a fat lady from either Berra or Stengel.
One of my favorite Casey Stengel quotes is “Good pitching will always stop good hitting and vice-versa.”
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/6 "2012-04-13T21:16:10Z")
There are also claims that it is an offshoot of of an old Southern saying, “Church ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings”, but I haven’t run that one to ground yet.
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/7 "2012-04-13T21:30:12Z")
Whether there’s any validity to my memory, I always thought it applied to the character of Brunhilde in one of the Wagner operas. Either that or Kate Smith. I also realized Yogi was shooting for the “fat lady” thing and did your basic Yogi misfire on it. The “Church ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings” would be (in my estimation) similar to the miscue from Yogi, since skinny ladies also sing in church.
Kate Smith’s sign-off tune was IIRC “When the moon comes over the mountain” or something like that, and Kate rarely pushed away from the table too soon.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/8 "2012-04-13T21:32:26Z")
> [@Zeldar](#):
>
> Whether there’s any validity to my memory, I always thought it applied to the character of Brunhilde in one of the Wagner operas. Either that or Kate Smith. I also realized Yogi was shooting for the “fat lady” thing and did your basic Yogi misfire on it. The “Church ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings” would be (in my estimation) similar to the miscue from Yogi, since skinny ladies also sing in church.
The trouble is that there is no record of Yogi ever saying anything close to the phrase in question.
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/9 "2012-04-13T21:48:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> The trouble is that there is no record of Yogi ever saying anything close to the phrase in question.
Be that as it may, you do find “it ain’t over till it’s over” among those things attributed to Yogi. For instance: [Yogi Berra - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra)
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/10 "2012-04-14T08:28:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> There are also claims that it is an offshoot of of an old Southern saying, “Church ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings”, but I haven’t run that one to ground yet.
The book _Southern Words And Sayings_(January 1976), by Fabia Rue Smith and Charles Rayford Smith, has in it the saying “Church ain’t over till the fat lady sings”. Even if this was something they made up instead of a real Southern saying, it still predates the March 10th 1976 reference by at least 3 months.
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/11 "2012-04-15T01:26:20Z")
**Czarcasm** , I’ve brought this to Cecil’s attention. He may amend the column, I can never predict how he’ll react. One of the joys of etymology is, of course, that words/phrases are in use before they’re written down, so there’s (almost) always a chance of finding an earlier mention.
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### Author:  [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/12 "2012-04-15T01:56:16Z")
# I love Yogi Berra (I’m old enough to have seen him catch for the Yankees), and my favorite quote of his (as he arrived late for something): “This is the earliest I’ve ever been late.”
And the “It ain’t over till it’s over” quote was taken a step further by (excuse the expression) O.J. Simpson who said, “It ain’t over till it’s over, and even then it’s not over.”
Sorry everyone. No cite, just memory (faulty as it is). 🙂
Q
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/13 "2012-04-15T18:09:35Z")
**Czarcasm** ’s cites are correct and the most up-to-date we have at this point.
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### Author:  [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/14 "2012-04-16T01:16:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> The trouble is that there is no record of Yogi ever saying anything close to the phrase in question.
_I didn’t say all the things I said._ - Yogi Berra
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/15 "2012-04-17T14:49:05Z")
The very last episode of _St. Elsewhere_ had a fat female opera singer, in full Wagnerian armored breastplate and helmet with horns, being treated at the hospital for laryngitis. Moments before the end of the episode, she burst forth into song.
> [@Zeldar](#):
>
> …Kate rarely pushed away from the table too soon.
I like this phrase even more!
My favorite (attributed) Yogi-ism is when he noticed his son watching a Steve McQueen movie on TV. “Huh,” said Yogi. “He must’ve made that one before he died.”
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### Author:  [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/16 "2012-04-17T20:21:37Z")
There was also a singing fat lady in the final episode of _Cop Rock_.
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### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/17 "2012-04-18T00:46:24Z")
Back in 1985 the Kansas City Royals played the St. Louis Cardinals in the World Series. The Royals lost the first two games, at home no less, won one game then lost another. So the standing was that they were down 3-1. During the fourth game I still remember a picture in the newspaper, of a St. Louis fan holding up a sign that read “The fat lady is humming!”
Of course Kansas City went on to win three games straight and take the Series 4-3. To this day they remain the only team to lose the first two AT HOME and still go on to take the title.
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### Author:  [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/18 "2012-04-20T01:21:06Z")
> [@samclem](#):
>
> **Czarcasm** ’s cites are correct and the most up-to-date we have at this point.
Don’t know if that was directed at _me_:), but of _course_ they’re correct. I was just veering off course as I am apt to do, **Samclem**. 😉
Quasi
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### Author:  [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/19 "2012-04-20T15:02:35Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#):
>
> There was also a singing fat lady in the final episode of _Cop Rock_.
As well as at the end of the Marx Brother’s Duck Soup, IIRC. EDIT: OK, she’s not actually that fat, now that I find the movie on youtube. But she definitely ends the show.
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-opera-aint-over/618659/20 "2012-04-22T22:13:13Z")
> [@Baker](#):
>
> Back in 1985 the Kansas City Royals played the St. Louis Cardinals in the World Series. The Royals lost the first two games, at home no less, won one game then lost another. So the standing was that they were down 3-1. During the fourth game I still remember a picture in the newspaper, of a St. Louis fan holding up a sign that read “The fat lady is humming!”
>
> Of course Kansas City went on to win three games straight and take the Series 4-3. To this day they remain the only team to lose the first two AT HOME and still go on to take the title.
In 1986 the Mets lost the 1st two at home and won the Series.
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