# The origin of Black Irish **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 15, 2001, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566 "2001-07-15T09:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cait](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Cait](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cait)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/1 "2001-07-15T09:38:41Z")
There were a few things about your answer re:the origin of the term “Black Irish” that I wanted to address. The original Gaels were invaders from “Milesia” who invaded Ireland approx. 1200 BCE. These invaders came from the Iberian Peninsula (present day Spain/Portugal) and are supposed to be racially akin to the Basque; not exactly a redhaired/blonde type race. The redheads/blondes are actually remnants of post Milesian invasions. The fact that the “black Irish” mainly inhabit the western part of the island may point to the fact that the black haired natives were part of a much older invasion of the island and actually supports that they are the descendants of the Milesians. It is indeed a myth that they came from Spanish survivors of the Armada. That event took place well into historical times and there were only two survivors of the Armada recorded as having landed in Ireland. They would have been tremendously prolific if they were to take credit for all of the black Irish. It is also a fact that Phoenicians did reach the British Isles and had a healthy trade with the Cornish tin mines. It is not much of a stretch to think that they made it across the Irish Sea to Ireland as well. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/2 "2001-07-15T13:16:23Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, **Cait**. For the convenience of anyone wishing to comment on this topic, the follwoing link will take you to Cecil’s column, ["Who are the “black Irish”](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_077.html)? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/3 "2001-07-15T17:10:00Z")
**Cait** : > [@](#): > > These invaders came from the Iberian penninsula and are supposed to be racially akin to the Basque… Hmmm…This seems a bit problematic given the yawning linguistic differences between the two peoples by at least the early christian era. Would you mind going into a little more detail on this one? I’m curious as to the source of this information. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/4 "2001-07-15T18:05:34Z")
a previous thread we did [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1826](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1826) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/5 "2001-07-15T18:10:28Z")
Whoa!! Now THERE’S a blast from the past! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cait](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Cait](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cait)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/6 "2001-07-15T20:00:14Z")
The Book of Leinster is the main source of information that the Milesians came from Iberia. There are a lot of different websites on the net if you do a search on the Milesians. There ARE some few historians that argue that the Gaels simply came through France from Europe. Be that as it may, the point is that simply because they were Gaels does not automatically mean they were blonde/redheads. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/7 "2001-07-16T23:05:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > These invaders came from the Iberian penninsula and are supposed to be racially akin to the Basque… > > Hmmm…This seems a bit problematic given the yawning linguistic differences between the two peoples by at least the early christian era. Would you mind going into a little more detail on this one? I’m curious as to the source of this information.\*\* It was all over the Irish and Scottish papers a month or so ago that genetic links had been found between the Celts and the Basques. I assume that’s what Cait’s talking about. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/8 "2001-07-17T04:54:49Z")
I’ve heard another theory to explain the “Black Irish:” that they are descended from refugees from the Roman Empire after the barbarian invasions of the 5th century, based in part on Thomas Cahill. The theory is that Syrian, Egyptian or Greek scholars sought a Christian country to settle in as the pagan barbarians overran the Roman Europe, and Ireland was, of course, the only Christain country outside of the empire. I personally prefer my mother’s explanation, that we are “touched by the devil.” ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/9 "2001-07-17T05:11:01Z")
**Cait** : Thank you 🙂 . So it’s an oral history/folklore sort of thing? That’s reasonable enough. I don’t necessarily dismiss such accounts, though they obviously aren’t always the last word. At any rate migration from both Iberia _and_ Gaul seems not at all unlikely, though one may have predominated. Obviously there were Celts present in both areas. And of course, as others have pointed out, our knowledge of ancient physiognomy is still rather incomplete. **ruadh** : Really? How curious. Do you know any specifics about this study or where it was published? Like what groups were compared and how? Doesn’t seem impossible that the Goidelic Celts may have entered Ireland via Iberia and perhaps mingled with the native Iberian people before that. There’s precedent enough elsewhere - i.e. The Slavs, who were conquered by and eventually absorbed minority ruling classes of Turks ( the Bulgars/Macedonians ), Vikings ( the Rus ), and perhaps Indo-Iranian horse tribes ( the Serbs and Croats ). Still, I’m a bit surprised based on what little I know about the Basques and Gaels. Any additional info would be welcome 🙂 . - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/10 "2001-07-17T06:37:33Z")
I’ve heard the term “Black Irish”, but what does it exactly mean? I mean, is there an example of a “Black Irish” person who might be famous. Like an actor, celebrity, politician of Irish origin…Or are there any “Black Irish” posters? Pardon me if I sound completely clueless. 🙂 Part of my interest is that I have read about several groups in America called “tri-racial isolates” who mostly live in the South. They include the “Melungeons”, “Brass Ankles”, “Redbones”, and a variety of other groups. “Black Irish”, “Black Dutch”, and “Portuguese” are often used as well by these groups. So I had no idea that people in Ireland itself were also called this. Until now the only “Black” Irishman I knew of, in any sense of the word, was Thin Lizzy’s lead singer, Phil Lynnott. But I think he was actually half African (according to VH1). ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/11 "2001-07-17T06:43:55Z")
Gabriel Byrne is a good example, although the exact requirements are somewhat fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/12 "2001-07-17T18:06:30Z")
Here are some definitions offered at [this web page](http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/): > [@](#): > > One such employment of the word ‘black’ in a racial sense is the reference to the “Black Irish” of the British West Indies, the mixed-blood offspring of 17th century Irish emigrants and African slaves who live on the island Montserrat, known also as the “Emerald Isle of the Caribbean.” The term “Black Irish” is also currently used with a deprecatory meaning by the Catholic Irish to describe the Protestants of Ireland who have historically supported the British rule of Ulster. “Black” in this sense connotes the “religious and political bigotry” felt by the Catholics towards the “Prods.” The third usage of the expression “Black Irish” is far rarer and has yet to be found _per se_ in print. In this sense "_Black_ "refers to the dark (hence “Black”) hair, eyes, and skin that supposedly marks a person of Irish blood as having descended from the conjugal relationship of a Spanish survivor of the Armada (male) with an Irish woman. The last definition is, of course, the one used in the Straight Dope column mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/13 "2001-07-17T18:29:29Z")
Tamerlane, I can’t find the article in the Irish Times archives, but I did find an email I was sent about the study. The sender didn’t quote his source, but I remember at the time thinking it was essentially the same thing I had read in the Irish Times. Here’s the relevant parts: > [@](#): > > [David Goldstein of University College London] and his colleagues looked at Y-chromosomes, passed from father to son, of Celtic and Norwegian populations. They found them to be quite different. > > [snippage] > > To try and work out where the Celtic population originally came from, the team from UCL, the University of Oxford and the University of California at Davis also looked at Basques. > > “On the Y-chromosome the Celtic populations turn out to be statistically indistinguishable from the Basques,” Professor Goldstein said. Getting back to the term “Black Irish”: I think Cecil noted this, but it isn’t actually used in Ireland - probably because having very dark hair and blue eyes isn’t nearly as uncommon here as most Americans seem to think. And I have heard “black” used in the North to refer to Protestants, but never followed by “Irish”. ---
**Author:** ![Xgemina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/b5e925/32.png) [@Xgemina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xgemina)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/14 "2001-07-18T01:00:19Z")
I have been following this thread with quite a bit of interest as I have always been curious about the term Black Irish for quite some time. I know my great grandfather on my mother’s side immigrated to the US from Ireland in the early 1900s. My grandfather always refered to our heritage as being Black Irish. I noticed that some of the Irish Dopers have referred to it being a derogatory term for Irish Protestants. All I know is that my grandfather used to use the term with a sense of pride. Kind of, “We’re Black Irish, proud, and don’t forget it.” I don’t know if this will help the discussion but thought I’d share. ---
**Author:** ![Neurodoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Neurodoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurodoc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/15 "2001-07-20T07:30:12Z")
I heard somewhere that the “Black Irish” were descendants of shipwrecked or captured sailors from the ill-fatted Spanish Armada…however this has some obvious problems, such as the location of the Armada fleet when it was defeated… But there could be something to this legend… ---
**Author:** ![Jordi\_Pujol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@Jordi\_Pujol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jordi_Pujol)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/16 "2001-07-20T13:25:51Z")
“Black Irish” is the English lexeme for a term that I suspect has existed for centuries in various forms in Gaelic dialects. The Scots-Gaelic apellation “Dougiuall”, loosely meaning “dark stranger”, for example, is thought by some to give rise to forms like “Dowell”, “Dougal”, “Doyle”, etc., some of the most common names in the Republic. As for dark-skinned Basques… Its a stereotype that all Spanish are dark. Phonecians, Greeks, Romans and Arabs were the principal ethnic progenitors of the Iberian peninsula, but the Visigoths were also an important genetic influence. This explains in part, I think, why from time to time you’ll encounter Spainards and Basques with dark hair and blue eyes, or (naturally) blonde hair. Also, there are more people with these charateristics in the Northern Provinces of Spain (Galicia, Asturias, etc.)…Pais Vasco included. What about red hair? As far as I know the Irish got this from the Danes, who invaded Ireland and became more Gael than the natives. What does all this mean? Not much, but it sure makes Irish nationalism seem kind of silly. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/17 "2001-07-20T14:03:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurodoc \* > I heard somewhere that the “Black Irish” were descendants of shipwrecked or captured sailors from the ill-fatted Spanish Armada. Neurodoc - the theory you suggest has been addressed by Cecil: [ol] [li]In the column mentioned by UncleBeer in the second post in this thread, which column ( **including** Slug Signorino’s illustration), incidentally, can also be found on pages 77-78 of Cecil Adams’ book «[_Triuumph of the Straight Dope_](http://www.straightdope.com/otheroutlets/books.html)».[/li][li]And in this other Straight Dope column, «[Do some Irish names come from Spanish Armada survivors?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_111.html)», which can also be found on pages 111-113 of Cecil Adams’ book «[_The Straight Dope_](http://www.straightdope.com/otheroutlets/books.html)».[/li][/ol] The second column mentioned draws the conclusion that «the Armada’s castoffs did not make much of a dent on the ethnic makeup of the country.» P.S. When you say “ill-fatted”, are you implying that the Spanish sailors did not receive sufficient nutrition to maintain a normal body weight? I had heard of scurvy affecting sailors, but was unaware that low body weight was another health hazard associated with travelling the high seas. ---
**Author:** ![Neurodoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Neurodoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurodoc)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/18 "2001-07-21T04:55:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Neurodoc \* > > I heard somewhere that the “Black Irish” were descendants of shipwrecked or captured sailors from the ill-fatted Spanish Armada. > > P.S. When you say “ill-fatted”, are you implying that the Spanish sailors did not receive sufficient nutrition to maintain a normal body weight? I had heard of scurvy affecting sailors, but was unaware that low body weight was another health hazard associated with travelling the high seas. \*\* Yes, those castaways were skinny buggers. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/19 "2001-07-21T05:41:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jordi Pujol \* > \*\* > What about red hair? As far as I know the Irish got this from the Danes, who invaded Ireland and became more Gael than the natives. > > \*\* I hate to post like this, but I seem to recall reading a passage by a Greek commentator (from the 3rd or 4th century BCE)making the point, basically, that there’s no accounting for taste by pointing out that the Keltoi thought red hair was attractive. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I’ll dig out the old college books and see if I can find a cite. As far as the rest of the post is concerned, I don’t see that Irish nationalism is any more silly than, say, Spanish nationalism, considering all the ethnic groups who occupied the Iberian Peninsula. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566/20 "2001-07-21T14:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jordi Pujol \* > **The Scots-Gaelic apellation “Dougiuall”, loosely meaning “dark stranger”, for example, is thought by some to give rise to forms like “Dowell”, “Dougal”, “Doyle”, etc., some of the most common names in the Republic.** Just to nitpick, it’s _Dubhghall_ (or _Dubhghaill_). “Dark (or black) foreigner” is the literal translation, and it is an Irish as well as a Scots-Gaelic name (the latter having only diverged from the former within the past 1000 years). And I’m not sure where you get the idea that nationalism is simply about ethnic heritage. It certainly isn’t true for Irish nationalism, many of the heroes of which came from other backgrounds e.g. Anglo-Norman, Spanish, Scottish etc. But I won’t hijack this thread any further … [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-black-irish/72566.md?page=2)