# The origin of Book of Mormon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2002, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633 "2002-10-17T07:37:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stccrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Stccrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stccrd)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/61 "2002-10-25T00:54:11Z")
Sorry, wrong reference in the last portion of my post. Here is a [link](http://scriptures.lds.org/james/1) to the correct reference, which by the way is James 1:5-6 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/62 "2002-10-25T01:14:21Z")
Thanks for calling us all liars, H4E. You amaze me more than ARG220/Zion’s inept attacks on my faith did. But it’s not amazement in a good way. Stccrd: One can only make such judgments when they willingly disobey the hammer…er, Bible they’re touting. That is, they can only disobey that if I’m not mistaken in there being something in that Noble Tome about it being God’s job, not H4E’s, to judge others. And good luck on your mission! ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/63 "2002-10-25T01:39:33Z")
While it’s possible to stroll into a library, pull three or four books about most major religions off the shelf – written from any perspective – spend a few days reading them, and come up with a fairly accurate idea of what they believe, explain why one can only read Mormon sites to understand the importance of The Book of Mormon. If there are any major religions who believe The Book of Mormon is authentic, give references. Also, Monty and emarkp, since I haven’t given evidence of being a liar in post on other subjects, could you please avoid calling me that. I’m not calling you liars, nor am I questioning your faith. I think you should go along with other Mormons who treat the BOM as being “useful for instruction” but not inviolable truth. ---
**Author:** ![Stccrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Stccrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stccrd)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/64 "2002-10-25T01:40:18Z")
Well thank you for those positive words Monty, its nice to hear that every now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/65 "2002-10-25T03:07:34Z")
I wasn’t talking to you, pw. I was talking to H4E. This part of the post is addressed to you: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of the major denominations of Christianity now. Especially in areas such as Utah. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/66 "2002-10-25T03:08:46Z")
btw, pw, did you miss this (bolding mine for this post): > [@](#): > > Thanks for calling us all liars, **H4E**. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/67 "2002-10-25T13:29:56Z")
Isaiah 43:10: There were no gods before me,(God is speaking here), and there will be none after me. I don’t see how you can interpret that any other way. Only one God. Buddism isn’t christianity, and you don’t see them minding that. Chrsitianity, Buddism, Mormonism, 3 different Religions. I have been to Lutheran, Episcopal, Assemblies, Foursquare, Baptist, Non-Denominational churches. They all agree with each other. Mormons believe completely different and opposite things-it is a religion, but not Christianity. I know you have been told your truth is the only right one, but if you ever compared Christianities beliefs with Mormonism’s, you will see they are diametrically opposed. And those who say we worship the same God you do-no. You claim God was once a man, that there is a Mother God also, etc. You do realize that Mormons claim ALL other “denominations” are in error. Anyway, God’s 2 cents… Like I said before, tell them their beliefs are not the beliefs of Christians and they start the name calling (liars). This is the truth, dear. ---
**Author:** ![Stccrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Stccrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stccrd)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/68 "2002-10-25T13:42:46Z")
If we are not Christians, Vanilla, then how do you explain the fact that the Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ, our full name is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, and that we believe the bible to be scripture. I am no incredible scholar, but it seems to me that those facts support Christ = being a Christian. > [@](#): > > Chris·tian Pronunciation Key (krschn) > adj. > Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. > Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings. > Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. > Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. > Showing a loving concern for others; humane. > > ## n. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus. > > ## [Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chrstinus, from Chrstus, Christ. See Christ.] > > Christian·ly adj. & adv. > > Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition > Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. > Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/69 "2002-10-25T13:43:49Z")
vanilla: Mormonism may not be your particular flavour of Christianity; however, it’s still Christianity. Also, we don’t say that al other denominations are “completely in error.” We just say that they have erred. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/70 "2002-10-25T14:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Isaiah 43:10: > There were no gods before me,(God is speaking here), and there will be none after me. > > I don’t see how you can interpret that any other way. > Only one God. > > Buddism isn’t christianity, and you don’t see them minding that. > Chrsitianity, Buddism, Mormonism, 3 different Religions. > > I have been to Lutheran, Episcopal, Assemblies, Foursquare, Baptist, Non-Denominational churches. > They all agree with each other. > Mormons believe completely different and opposite things-it is a religion, but not Christianity. > > I know you have been told your truth is the only right one, but if you ever compared Christianities beliefs with Mormonism’s, you will see they are diametrically opposed. > > And those who say we worship the same God you do-no. > You claim God was once a man, that there is a Mother God also, etc. > > You do realize that Mormons claim ALL other “denominations” are in error. > > Anyway, God’s 2 cents… > > Like I said before, tell them their beliefs are not the beliefs of Christians and they start the name calling (liars). > > This is the truth, dear. \*\* I may not agree with everything you say, **vanilla** , but I must agree with you here. Closely examine the beliefs of mormonism and Christianity, they are not compatible. God was never a man sir, and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will never be a god. There’s no father and mother God up in heaven or is it on the star Kolob having spiritual babies. It’s ridiculous to say this belief is compatible with Christianity which does not hold to these beliefs and they are **not** taught anywhere in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/71 "2002-10-25T14:51:48Z")
I didn’t say you weren’t a chrsitian, Monty, but teh beleifs of Mormonism are _not_ compatible with all other denominations I am familiar with. But thanks for being so polite about it. You impress me. His4Ever-oh? and what exactly don’t you agree with me about?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/72 "2002-10-25T14:56:39Z")
At bottom, the question of whether Mormons are Christians devolves on two points: (1) Do they consider themselves Christians? Answer: yes. (2) Do they do what other Christians consider the minimum for calling oneself Christian? Insofar as I know, that consists in believing, and openly professing that belief, in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. And this Mormons do in fact do. > [@](#): > > God was never a man sir Ah, **His4Ever** , but you and I are honorbound to believe that He indeed was – He became man in a stable in Bethlehem just over 2000 years ago. With regard to the Doctrine of Eternal Progression, I find Mormon theology as I’ve been given to understand it to be totally bizarre – though little more so than the insistence on the literal truth of a collection of men’s accounts of their experiences with God that strong evangelical Protestants seem to consider essential to their faith. It will take a better man than I to explain the non-LDS stance on God’s promise “You shall be as Gods” and what the New Testament teaches regarding that verse. But I’m confident that God meant something important regarding our future by it, and that neither the Latter-day Saints nor the rest of us have the precisely right handle on what it really means. It goes without saying that I object strenuously to the alleged Nephite and Lamanite civilizations, which AFAIK no non-Mormon scholar has ever found any archaeological evidence of. At least the miracles and theophanies of the Bible take place in a setting that is archaeologically sound, if sometimes misrepresented by Scripture. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/73 "2002-10-25T19:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > At bottom, the question of whether Mormons are Christians devolves on two points: (1) Do they consider themselves Christians? Answer: yes. Not that it’s anyone’s place to decide this for us other than us and our deity, of course. > [@](#): > > (2) Do they do what other Christians consider the minimum for calling oneself Christian? I don’t recall y’all getting that mandate. > [@](#): > > Insofar as I know, that consists in believing, and openly professing that belief, in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. And this Mormons do in fact do. Exactly. Thanks, Poly. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/74 "2002-10-25T19:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*I didn’t say you weren’t a chrsitian, Monty, but teh beleifs of Mormonism are _not_ compatible with all other denominations I am familiar with. > But thanks for being so polite about it. > You impress me. > > His4Ever-oh? and what exactly don’t you agree with me about?🙂 \*\* Shoot, I can’t remember now, I just seem to vaguely recall disagreeing with you on something, maybe it was the discussion on homosexuality, I can’t remember now doggone it!😕 ---
**Author:** ![MrMcPlad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19b73/32.png) [@MrMcPlad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMcPlad)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/75 "2002-10-25T20:02:06Z")
I don’t think that His4ever, vanilla, or partly\_warmer really know much about the beliefs of Latter-day Saints. I’d like to quote from How Wide the Divide, written _jointly_ by Stephen E. Robinson (LDS) and Craig L. Blomberg (Evangelical Christian Minister). I urge everyone (Mormon and Evangelical alike) to read it. > [@](#): > > _Page 195_ > On the one hand, we jointly and sincerely affirm the following foundational propositions of the Christian gospel as we both understand it. > > 1. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one eternal God. > 2. Jesus Christ is Lord. He is both the Son of God and God the Son. > 3. There is no other name and no other way by which any individual may be saved other than through Jesus Christ. > 4. Jesus Christ suffered, bled and died on the cross to perform a substitutionary atonement for the sins of the world. > 5. Jesus Christ was resurrected on the third day and raised up in glory to the right hand of God. > 6. We enter into the gospel covenant and are saved by the preaching of the word and by the grace of God. > 7. We are justified before God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. > 8. We are progressively sanctified by yielding our lives to God’s Holy Spirit, who enables us to obey God’s commands. > 9. All the gifts of the Spirit manifested in the New Testament church continue in God’s church today. > 10. The Bible is God’s word and is true and trustworthy within those parameters that the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy and the eighty LDS Article of Faith share. > 11. Jesus Christ will publicly and visibly return from heaven to establish his millennial kingdom on earth. > 12. The God of heaven is a God of love, and those who desire to be with him must also seek to be motivated in all their relationships by love. And you still don’t think we’re Christians? This post is long enough for now. Do you want to see what these two scholars agreed to disagree on? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/76 "2002-10-25T20:14:02Z")
For the record, I was baptized into the CoJCoLDS 2 years ago. Monty, what is your take on Isaiah 43:10? ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/77 "2002-10-26T16:58:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrMcPlad \* > \*\* > > And you still don’t think we’re Christians? This post is long enough for now. Do you want to see what these two scholars agreed to disagree on? \*\* I don’t know that I can find a lot to disagree with in that quote. But that quote does not state all of the teachings of Mormonism. I’m not totally sure about statement 9 and definitely not sure about what is meant in statement 10. That still doesn’t explain the belief that mormons think God was once a man just like us and that ordinary men living today may someday be a god. I have a book written by a woman who was raised a mormon form her childhood up and is now a Christian and has left Mormonism. I’ve talked about this book in other threads. The name of the book is **Mormonism, Mama, & Me** by **Thelma “Granny” Greer.** There are photocopies of mormon documents in this book that state some of their beliefs. I’d like to quote some of them: God an Exalted Man - “God himself is once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in it’s orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible, – I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form–like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man.” Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol 6 A Council of the Gods - “In the beginning the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted (prepared) to create the world and people it.” JS, History of the Church, vol 6 Celestian Marriage - “If none but Gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives.” JS, History of the Church, vol 6 Intelligence, etc. - “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol 7 Journal of Discourses - “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” BG, J of D, vol 10 “In the Heaven where our spirits were born, there are many Gods, each one of them has his own wife or wives which were given to him previous to his redemption, while yet in his mortal state. Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, vol 1, no. 3 There is much more, but I’ll stop there. Now, I’d like to add a few quotes from the author: “As this third edition of my love story about Jesus and for my Mormon people goes to press, I make further acknowledgement of my responsibility to God, to my Mormon people, and to Christians everywhere to continue to honestly represent Mormonism for what it really is and to stand stedfastly, but lovingly, against it’s errors and hidden doctrines. But I have an added responsibility: the responsiblity to assure all readers–Mormon and non-Mormon–that in spite of Mormon charges to the contrary, I have not misrepresented Mormonism in any way.”…“Actually in my writing of this book, I had withheld some of Mormonism’s teachings, which range from the blasphemous to the ludicrous.” Preface "Together Mama and Papa named their newest daughter Thelma Rachel Smithson. They determined that I should early learn that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. From them I learned such other Mormon ‘gospel truths’ as these: ``` God is an exalted man with a physical body, parts, and passions. Men may become Gods. Jesus is merely one of God's billions of sexually begotten-in-heaven sons and the only one sexually begotten by Him on earth. Satan is a full spirit brother of Jesus. He could have been the Savior if his plan of salvation had surpassed that of Jesus. Adam's 'sin' was a blessing and not a curse. It was just as necessary for Adam to sin as it was for Christ to be crucified. "pp. 27-28 ``` “The God of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still not yet perfect. He is still progressing from one degree to a higher level of perfection, still advancing in wisdom and knowledge, still busily and unceasingly sexually impregnating his wives.” p 33 There’s much much more I’d like to quote but this post is getting long enough. This author was raised a Mormon. She was indoctrinated by her Mormon parents from a child in the beliefs and teachings of Mormonism. She has photocopies of Mormon documents in her book that state their beliefs. These beliefs do not by any means agree with the Bible which says there’s only one God, not many, as Mormonism teaches. I urge anyone interested in Mormonism to read this book if they can get it. I think it can be accessed at [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) as I think someone else said they accessed it there when I mentioned it in another thread. Some Mormons may not even be aware these doctrines are believed by their church. They may say they don’t believe these things. They may not, but the founders of their church believed them. I say this truthfully and lovingly, as the author attempts to speak to her Mormon people, the Mormon church is not a Christian church. The beliefs put forth in these Mormon documents aren’t Christian beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/78 "2002-10-26T20:01:53Z")
H4E: How about you quit getting your information from bigots, and maybe even check out a book written by someone who isn’t Mormon? I refer you to: _Mormonism_, by Jan Schipps. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/79 "2002-10-26T20:28:45Z")
Monty: What is your take on Isaiah 43:10? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633/80 "2002-10-26T21:32:23Z")
For the record, vanilla says she’s no longer a member of the LDS Church. Vanilla: What difference does my take on that particular verse make? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-book-of-mormon/132633.md?page=5)