# The Origin of Evil **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2000, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497 "2000-08-15T21:53:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![thecabinet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9c0ed/32.png) [@thecabinet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thecabinet)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/1 "2000-08-15T21:53:00Z")
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? / Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? / Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? / Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? / Then why call him God? -Epicurus I’m agnostic although raised a Jew, and I enjoy playing devil’s advocate, but how do you argue against this? Seems to me Epicurus got it pretty much right. God is either weak, mean, or both, and any of those qualify he/she/it as a big piece of crap and not worthy of my tithings or worship. I assume one likely answer is that free will causes evil, and God gave us free will because some good caused by it outweighs some bad (not even potential, but actual, as God knows all, sees all). Of course, the people that tell us about this good that comes from free will can’t tell us what this good is because then they’d be making some sense… “Lousy God!” -Homer Simpson ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/2 "2000-08-15T22:08:41Z")
sunday night on the BBC news there was a rabbi in israel that cause a stir by saying that the jews that died in the holocaust were suffering because of bad karma of previous lives. other jews were objecting to this statement but the interesting thing to me was that he was talking about reincarnation at all. the word hell in the old testament is translated from sheol, which means place of the dead. the christian heaven and hell seems to come from roman paganism. the question of EVIL looks very different from the paradigm of reincarnation. near the beginning of psalms there is talk of god laughing because the kings of the earth are doing evil. does god know something the kings of the earth don’t know? ``` Dal Timgar ``` ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/3 "2000-08-15T22:23:45Z")
thecabinet: We’ve covered this in numerous other threads, but I can see you’re new here. So here’s a basic recap of the Orthodox Jewish point of view: For whatever reason, G-d wanted a world of beings capable of exercising free choice. Free choice could not exist if evil were not an option. Is this malevolent? No, because the rewards of leading a life of freely-chosen good is a good thing. The possibility of evil enables this to exist; making evil impossible would preclude the existence of this reward. Hence, allowing evil is an act of beneficence…it allows the greater good to exist. The truth is, I now see from the statement at the end of your post that you’d pretty much gotten to this point. You seem to have a problem with this point of view because there is no sufficient Earthly description of heaven. Well, can’t help you there. Just try to picture the most enjoyable thing you can imagine and then figure it’s even better than that. ---
**Author:** ![SeatTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SeatTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeatTime)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/4 "2000-08-15T22:26:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by thecabinet \* > God is either weak, mean, or both, and any of those qualify he/she/it as a big piece of crap and not worthy of my tithings or worship. Oooooooo…you are _so_ gonna burn in the Lake of Fire for that! 🙂 I have to come back later to see if you’re severely charred or merely singed. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2000, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/5 "2000-08-15T23:08:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\* > For whatever reason, G-d wanted a world of beings capable of exercising free choice. Free choice could not exist if evil were not an option. > > Is this malevolent? No, because the rewards of leading a life of freely-chosen good is a good thing. > \*\* Since we’ve all only lived in a world where good was a freely-chosen option, are we qualified to say whether it is a good thing? It seems you’re assuming it’s good because of your belief that God is good. ---
**Author:** ![SeatTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SeatTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeatTime)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/6 "2000-08-16T00:36:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > For whatever reason, G-d wanted a world of beings capable of exercising free choice. Free choice could not exist if evil were not an option. Which brings us right back to: God _knew_ all this crap was going to happen, so (to get back to the OP’s question) it can be concluded that evil came from God. Hmmm…now the wheels are turning. That kind of makes sense. God could not have existed in 100% “goodness”, because good requires evil, to be meaningful. So, maybe God is the epitome of both, and Satan is just another face of God. Just thinking out loud… ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/7 "2000-08-16T00:38:03Z")
As I attempted to point out in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=31109), believers tend to say that God has a higher purpose - that free will/disasters teach us how to be better creatures or allow us to earn something we couldn’t otherwise obtain. I say this means that the God described is not omnipotent, because if He could do _anything_, he could give us that secret ingredient they say must be earned, but without the suffering they say is necessary to earn it. If he can’t do this, he’s not omnipotent, is he? But they don’t like to talk about that. ---
**Author:** ![Ted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/db5fbb/32.png) [@Ted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ted)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/8 "2000-08-16T01:44:55Z")
God is divided. Evil exists cause he’s not complete. The soul of each person has the part of God with in it. The point of life is to return it to him. There is no evil. You only think there is. All loving means letting go. If you love somthing, then you allow it to make it’s own decisions. God isn’t the only good. Ect. Ect. Go type in “Theodicy” in a search engine and you’ll get some real answers. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/9 "2000-08-16T02:52:40Z")
buddhism ted:) The way i look at it god is good and good is what god does. The definition of good comes from god because good isint some “truth”. God does have a higher purpose, hes letting us learn for ourselves mostly. Of course he could just give us something to make us learn probably but whats the point of something if its not earned? Though there is one truth, wordgames don’t mean nothin. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/10 "2000-08-16T15:07:20Z")
Dumbguy: > [@](#): > > Since we’ve all only lived in a world where good was a freely-chosen option, are we qualified to say whether it is a good thing? It seems you’re assuming it’s good because of your belief that God is good. Sorry is I was unclear on the following point: the OP, it seemed to me, was asking questions about inconsistencies in the accepted Judeo-Chritian definition of G-d. My response to him was intended to settle those contradictions within the context of that belief system, in which G-d is indeed defined as good. Naturally, there is no extraneous proof that freely-chosen good is better than non-chosen good, although instances in the real world comparing the sensations of satisfaction and happiness between people who have earned what they have and people who haven’t can possibly be taken as an illustration of a general principle that applies in that realm as well. SeatTime: > [@](#): > > Which brings us right back to: God knew all this crap was going to happen, so (to get back to the OP’s question) it can be concluded that evil came from God. Well, the “omniscience” angle wasn’t part of the OP, otherwise I would have addressed it as well. There are a number of old threads on this board which deal with the issue of free choice vs. omniscience. While I’ll give you a “nutshell” answer, further debate on the subject that can be found in those threads might answer questions that will arise from that answer, and I encourage you to read them prior to posting questions about it. That nutshell answer is: He knows of the evil that men chose _because_ they chose it. AerynSun: > [@](#): > > I say this means that the God described is not omnipotent, because if He could do anything, he could give us that secret ingredient they say must be earned, but without the suffering they say is necessary to earn it. If he can’t do this, he’s not omnipotent, is he? Well, that depends on your definition of omnipotence, doesn’t it? G-d is able to do anything that is not **inherently impossible**. By that I mean something that is not self-contradictory by definition. He can create, for example, a horse with wings if he wants to. But he can’t create a horse that simultaneously has wings and doesn’t have wings. By the same token, there’s no way to create “unearned earned reward.” It’s inherently impossible. That "secret ingredient to which you refer is no secret. It’s the satisfaction that a person feels as a result of completing a task that he worked on. There is a special quality to the results of one’s own efforts that cannot be replicated in unearned things. If that sort of “non-omnipotence” makes him, in your eyes, a deficient being, then so be it. But the definition of G-d’s omnipotence as defined in Orthodox Judaism includes that clause. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/11 "2000-08-16T15:16:47Z")
Part of the problem is the way you look at evil. According to Christian theology, evil does not exist in any objective, _real_ way; rather, it is an absence of God. So God did not create evil, he molded us in his own image, giving us the free choice to accept him or not. Evil arises when we do not all strive to embrace God in our hearts. Have a look at **The City of God**. It is an enormous book, so check out the index entry for “evil.” MR ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/12 "2000-08-16T16:12:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\*Evil arises when we do not all strive to embrace God in our hearts. > \*\* That sounds a little too much like if you don’t believe in God then you are going to Hell. I am not a Christian. I do not embrace God in my heart. But I am not evil. I consider myself to be a pretty moral person. Or when you say that “we do not **all** strive to embrace God” that just presents the opportunity for evil. That is to say - I don’t believe in God, therefore evil exists, even though I myself may not be a perpetrator of said evil. If that is the case, it seems to make “evil” too subjective to put a finger on. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/13 "2000-08-16T17:01:37Z")
> [@](#): > > If a man has done evil, was he forced to do it? Well, if he was, then he is not accountable for it. > [@](#): > > Then if he wasn’t forced, did he not choose evil for himself? Semantical gibberish. Why did God _allow_ him to choose evil? Which is God, impotent or malevolent? > [@](#): > > Which is evil, allowing a man to make his own choice or forcing upon him a choice against his will? Hey, I asked you first. > [@](#): > > God is neither impotent nor malevolent. If He were either, He would not be God. Evasive. Reconcile God’s perceived omnipotence with His inability to destroy evil or else His perceived omnibenevolence with His unwillingness to destroy it. > [@](#): > > I’m afraid there’s nothing to reconcile. Evil has already been destroyed. Nonsense. I see no evidence of that. > [@](#): > > No? Can you see the conclusion of the time-line? Of course not. > [@](#): > > Well then, the pot has called the Kettle black, hasn’t it? What the hell is _that_ supposed to mean? > [@](#): > > You, who cannot even see the entirety of space-time, are clearly impotent. The induction of your impotence to God’s own attribute seems arbitrary. But I do not _claim_ to be omnipotent, and He does. > [@](#): > > Then show that a Being Who is Eternal has not done what He has said He will do. That’s not fair. How can I possibly know what might be accomplished billions of years from now? > [@](#): > > Well, you couldn’t because that knowledge is unavailable to you from the closed reference frame of your consciousness. Huh? > [@](#): > > All you can see is what is in your cone. My cone? > [@](#): > > Yes. Your cone. Your chronosynclasticinfundibulm. But nothing exists outside my cone. > [@](#): > > Then you are an existentialist? Evidently. > [@](#): > > Oh, sorry. I thought I was discoursing with a man of reason. Okay, but don’t let it happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/14 "2000-08-16T19:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > That sounds a little too much like if you don’t believe in God then you are going to Hell. Which St. Augustine certainly would have agreed with. It took almost a thousand years for Christian theologians to concoct Limbo, where all of the patriarchs and saintly pre-Christian pagans ended up. > [@](#): > > I am not a Christian. I do not embrace God in my heart. But I am not evil. I consider myself to be a pretty moral person. Well, you may not be evil by nature, but your failure to believe in God opens the door. According to this kind of theology, godlessness = evil. > [@](#): > > If that is the case, it seems to make “evil” too subjective to put a finger on. And that is precisely the point. Augustine was struggling against the legacy of Manicheism, whose pantheon consists of the warring gods of good and evil. Augustine was himself a Manichee before converting to Christianity. He sought to prove that there is no independent existence of evil, hence it is only a subjective lack of God. MR ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/15 "2000-08-16T20:17:43Z")
Considering my views, and holding them up against St. Augustine’s views, my only conclusion is that St. Augie was a crack-pot. If I say to someone, I don’t believe in God, that pretty much says that I do not believe in Hell, or Godlessness=Evil. If the only retort is, “It doesn’t matter what you believe, that’s the way it is.” Then I can only roll my eyes. That argument is akin to banging my head against a wall, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/16 "2000-08-16T20:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\*That argument is akin to banging my head against a wall, is it not? > \*\* Let me clarify that - _engaging_ in an argument such as that would be futile. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origin-of-evil/29497/17 "2000-08-16T20:39:10Z")
I don’t know why you would expect an orthodox man of faith to accept otherwise. God/Good _is_, no matter what you may believe. So you are right, I would not expect you would get terribly far with your line of reasoning. Though Augustine may have some surprise answers for you, given how far his intellect surpasses mine. MR