# The Original Purpose, And Continued Purpose Of Day Savings Time Is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 4, 2007, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176 "2007-11-04T09:44:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/21 "2007-11-05T18:45:30Z")
You know, _Hitler_ brought DST to Germany. That’s all I’m saying. Ha. I can Godwin _any_ thread. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/22 "2007-11-05T20:48:46Z")
[QUOTE=masterofnone] Of course a lot of people have to get up earlier, but those that don’t have to are losing daylight, and isn’t energy cheaper in the morning anyway because it’s off-peak? [/QUOTE] Yes. I exaggerated earlier by saying you would lose as many daylight-awake-hours in the morning as you gained in the afternoon. You would lose a great deal, but not as many as you would gain. For reference, here are some tables from the [National Sleep Foundation](http://www.sleepfoundation.org/atf/cf/%7BF6BF2668-A1B4-4FE8-8D1A-A5D39340D9CB%7D/2000_poll.pdf) (PDF, see Tables 1 and 2) about when people get up and go to bed. Assume we’re talking about a mid-northern latitude in winter, getting nine hours of daylight. If our absolute, one-and-only goal were to maximize the number of daylight person-awake-hours (_assuming that people wouldn’t change their schedules in response to clock changes_), we’d want sunrise about 10:00 and sunset about 7:00. At that point, finally, the small number of people going to bed early roughly balances the small number of people getting up late. We’d not only keep DST year-round, we’d tack on _another_ hour or two! But of course, that isn’t our one-and-only goal. As the comments in this thread indicate, people don’t _like_ getting up in the darkness (and there are traffic safety issues with people driving to work in the dark, and children going to school in the dark). Look at Table 2. Sixty percent of the population wakes up on weekdays before 7:00 a.m. (or at least says that they do). By the time darkness starts encroaching on the 6-to-7 hour, it’s forcing sixty percent of people to awaken in darkness. As I say, people don’t like doing that (we’re biologically wired to rise with the light), and that’s enough people to make life inconvenient for any legislator who proposes it. Ergo, no DST in November. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/23 "2007-11-05T21:32:11Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] You know, _Hitler_ brought DST to Germany. That’s all I’m saying. [/QUOTE] Germany introduced DST during World War I. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/24 "2007-11-05T21:41:53Z")
[The Master Speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a910906.html) [The Master Speaks Some More.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_052.html) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/25 "2007-11-06T05:08:28Z")
Laugh at DST, but you can do that because you have it there. We don’t and look at what we have on June 21st. > [@](#): > > 21 Jun 2007 (sunrise) 04:25 (sunset) 19:00 What a fucking joke. The sun sets at 7:00 pm, which is an hour after most people get off work, and hours of sunrise are wasted while people are sleeping. That’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/26 "2007-11-06T05:43:09Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] Germany introduced DST during World War I. [/QUOTE] Precisely what a nazi sympathizer would want us to believe. ---
**Author:** ![masterofnone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@masterofnone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterofnone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/27 "2007-11-06T17:08:38Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] Yes. I exaggerated earlier by saying you would lose as many daylight-awake-hours in the morning as you gained in the afternoon. You would lose a great deal, but not as many as you would gain. For reference, here are some tables from the [National Sleep Foundation](http://www.sleepfoundation.org/atf/cf/%7BF6BF2668-A1B4-4FE8-8D1A-A5D39340D9CB%7D/2000_poll.pdf) (PDF, see Tables 1 and 2) about when people get up and go to bed. [/QUOTE] Interesting data. I guess I’m just an outlier because of my insomnia. On an average night, I sleep from midnight to 2, then 3-5, then 6-7:30. I don’t mind waking up in the dark. It’s having anything interrupt my sleep that bothers me. It was just getting to the point that sunrise was perfect for my body’s clock and bam! fall back an hour! Now I lose out on that last hour of sleep. I swear, one of these days I’m going to build a lightproof, soundproof box to sleep in. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/28 "2007-11-06T21:22:49Z")
Maybe the position of the sun plotted on an analemma hints at the purpose. [http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Icons/Analemma/index.html](http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Icons/Analemma/index.html) Since the sun’s mid-day position…and thus, sunrise and sunset… changes from day to day, perhaps it is geometrically logical to subtract an hour of daylight from one part of the year and add it to another. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/29 "2007-11-07T02:18:34Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] [The Master Speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a910906.html) [The Master Speaks Some More.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_052.html) [/QUOTE] Right, Cecil has made this very clear, there is no need for more wild-assed conspiracy theories or guesses. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/30 "2007-11-07T03:10:03Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Right, Cecil has made this very clear, there is no need for more wild-assed conspiracy theories or guesses. [/QUOTE] That’s what they’d LIKE you to think… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/31 "2007-11-07T03:30:33Z")
We wouldnt have all the whining if we had just designed our schedules to be centered on Noon, the center of the day. But, Noooo. Most folks want to start their day at about 8, when they only have 4 hours until Noon, and end it around 10pm, a full 10 hours after Noon. When they start out that unbalanced, it doesn’t take much seasonal variation of sunrise/sunset times to produce a crisis of too little light when you want it. ---
**Author:** ![Amblydoper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@Amblydoper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amblydoper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/32 "2007-11-07T05:49:29Z")
People only complain about DST during the fall and spring, when we are forced to change our daily routines abruptly. Leave the time alone, and the sun will gently ease us into the consequences of limited winter daylight. **Arizonifacation, baby!** ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/33 "2007-11-07T14:38:54Z")
I’ve got no cite other than an opinionated “know-it-all” acquaintance, but I recall him insisting that when DST was recently expanded there was no research/studies establishing a clear energy savings. I do not recall whether he opined that no such data exists, or if the existing data failed to document significant energy savings. I note that none of the preceding responses point to any such evidence. According to this blowhard, the expansion was the result of commercial lobbyists - I think he singled out candy manufacturers, desiring an extra week in the fall for more light for trick-or-treating. Was the first I had heard of a nefarious nougat lobby! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/34 "2007-11-08T19:42:43Z")
Since daylight saving is to promote more sunlight after work, why don’t we change the law so sunrise occurs at 3:00pm every day? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/35 "2007-11-08T20:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=SaintCad] Since daylight saving is to promote more sunlight after work, why don’t we change the law so sunrise occurs at 3:00pm every day? [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t that be a little like, say, repealing the law of gravity? Maybe just over parts of Florida, so rockets could get off the ground easier? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/36 "2007-11-08T21:40:41Z")
[QUOTE=SaintCad] Since daylight saving is to promote more sunlight after work, why don’t we change the law so sunrise occurs at 3:00pm every day? [/QUOTE] Oh please. :rolleyes: The point to the law is to transfer from the time before most people are awake and up and doing things the daylight that exists then in the summer to the time before we go to bed. Thus, the thinking goes, why have all the lights on in the evening during an hour of darkness, when there aren’t nearly as many lights on during the early morning hour before everyone is up, and off to work. The primary energy savings isn’t from homes; it’s from businesses (which aren’t open at 5:00 - 7:00 am) and entertainment establishments, etc. (as well as homes). Why does everyone get so worked up about Daylight Saving Time? I mean, goodness, what’s the big deal. Twice a year, we change the clocks and check the smoke alarms. OMG, kill me now, I can’t live with it… :eek: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/37 "2007-11-08T22:13:47Z")
For all of you who think you hate DST, you don’t know the half of what a pain in the ass it can be when combined with managerial idiocy. Trying to set up databases to track real-time systems is pretty easy if you follow the standards . Most businesses with a clue run their database timestamps off of GMT\* year round. Then they automatically convert any reports to what the monkey-manager reading it wants. But sometimes you get an idiot IT manager who decided that what his watch says is the basis of everything. I had to debug an assinine system that was trying to use a manually-generated timestamp off current-local time. :smack: The database audit process was freaking out when record insertion was out of order, and they couldn’t figure out why. Maybe it has something to do with the fact the system has two 1:00AM to 2:00AM periods on the same freakin day, and has no way to distinguish them, so it thinks you inserted a record at 1:15 _transactionally after_ one was inserted at 1:45. It’s is correct to tell you something is wrong. Morons. \*yeah I know it’s actually a counter since 1970, not quite GMT. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/38 "2007-11-09T02:23:08Z")
So what’s the downside of just splitting the difference and changing the time once by 30 minutes and leaving it at that? ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2007, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176/39 "2007-11-09T11:29:07Z")
[QUOTE=sinjin] So what’s the downside of just splitting the difference and changing the time once by 30 minutes and leaving it at that? [/QUOTE] For one thing, it introduces a 30 minute offset from UTC mod 60, which is sort of ugly. The current situation is a mess. The well-meaning idiots in Washington can’t leave the DST rules well-enough alone. I would prefer to get rid of DST, but I doubt that will happen. Many organizations that have to coordinate international operations have already switched to UTC. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-purpose-and-continued-purpose-of-day-savings-time-is/425176.md?page=1)