# The original X-Men vs. the Silver Age Legion of Super-Heroes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780 "2011-09-19T02:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/61 "2011-09-20T21:06:34Z")
I just found the pdf online (no links). If memory serves, normal humans have a base stat of 2, and each +1 doubles the previous (so 3 is twice as strong as 2, 4 is twice as strong as 3, etc.). Paul Levitz was one of the authors, so for comparison purposes, these are about as definitive as one can get in the DC Universe. LSH Strength stats: Supergirl / Mon-El: 48 Superboy: 47 Ultra Boy: 44 Wildfire: 35 Timber Wolf: 34 Colossal Boy / Blok: 30 Ferro Lad: 25 For reference, Validus: 58 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/62 "2011-09-20T21:16:53Z")
Buh? Supergirl and Mon-El are twice as strong as Superboy, and Validus is 2048 times stronger? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/63 "2011-09-20T21:41:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Buh? Supergirl and Mon-El are twice as strong as Superboy, and Validus is 2048 times stronger? Welcome to the ridiculousness of the DC Heroes roleplaying game (for those who like exact stats) and DC power levels in general. Assuming a 2 strength allows one to press 100kg (220#), Spiderman would be around an 8 or 9 in strength, and it would be hard to distinguish strength levels between Thing, Colossus, Juggernaut, and the Hulk (all would be a 12). At a 47 strength, pre-Crisis Superboy could press 3,870,280,929,772 tons. (Doing the math on this was much harder in pre-spreadsheet days). This is why his punches could affect reality. For shits and giggles, one would need a 78 strength in order to bench press the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/64 "2011-09-20T21:47:29Z")
What about dragging twelve or thirteen planets through interstellar space on a giant chain, because that’s what pre-crisis Superboy considered a casual afternoon’s good deed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/65 "2011-09-20T21:56:16Z")
Gather all the X-Men, with one exception, who ever lived and the Silver Age Legion still wins. Imra Arden can hold Xavier long enough for a super-fast Mon-El or Superboy or Supergirl to pulverize every X-Man. The Legionnaires are good at teamwork, too, and they have Brainiac 5. That one exception is Phoenix. She has enough power to give the X-Fools a chance, but even then the Legion has Brainy and much experience fighting god-like beings. And if Xavier isn’t there, it wouldn’t surprise me if Imra couldn’t fight Phoenix to a standstill or better. I’ve always thought Saturn Girl could make just about any incarnation of Jean Grey her bitch. Tengu: I’m pretty sure Matter-Eater Lad did eat some inertron when Omega attacked. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/66 "2011-09-20T21:59:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What about dragging twelve or thirteen planets through interstellar space on a giant chain, because that’s what pre-crisis Superboy considered a casual afternoon’s good deed. That’s different. That’s like the strongman who straps on a harness and pulls a locomotive. He can’t press the locomotive. And Supes has the advantage of less friction in space. The hard part would be stopping the momentum when the planets get in place. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/67 "2011-09-21T00:39:07Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Oddly, the Silver Age LSH costumes are actually _more_ risque than anything Emma has come up with at her worst. Saturn Girl and Dream Girl are in swimwear with go-go boots, and Dawnstar… well, Brainy must’ve come up with some sort of superscience taping to keep her puppies in that outfit. > > Even Emma’s “reverse-X cutout” costume is outdone by Cos’ bustier. Thank Og that Greg Land never did a LSH comic, says I. Those costumes are from the mid-70s and I would consider them Bronze Age. Most of the really over-the-top costumes from that era were designed by Mike Grell. You also have Princess Projectra’s lace-up front, Shadow Lass’ bikini-and-cape, Cosmic Boy’s bustier, Colossal Boy’s speedo, and Tyroc. Back to the OP’s premise: not a chance. The only scenario where the original X-Men, or any iteration of the X-Men, can beat the Legion, even limited to a pre-Jim Shooter roster, is if a) Professor X shuts down the minds of the Legion or b) if the Legion is written as complete idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/68 "2011-09-21T02:53:53Z")
Okay… the Inferior Five vs. the lamest five legionnaires, i.e. Bouncing Boy, Matter-Eater Lad… Stone Boy from the Substitutes… any other suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/69 "2011-09-21T03:13:35Z")
Color Kid ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/70 "2011-09-21T03:31:56Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > b) if the Legion is written as complete idiots. I guess the X-Men win 8 out of 10 then…not that the X-Men were always written as intelligent, but the DC in the 60s had stupidity down to a science. Or was it an art form? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/71 "2011-09-21T14:42:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Molecule Man. He could control _all matter and energy_ and yet he was, at best, a second-rate villain/antihero. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, but Molecule Man got his head straightened out in _Secret Wars_ and is arguably the hero of _Secret Wars II_, and if he wants to retire quietly to some Denver suburb with his meaty/hottie girlfriend, let him. > > At least that’s where _I_ last saw him. The summaries of later stories involving him that I find on his wiki page don’t sound promising. Of all the villains of the Marvel Universe, Molecule Man is one of my favorites (of course with the Secret Wars 2 development, and the very good Avengers episode where he heals the Earth with the Surfer). His story is quite unique in comic books. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/72 "2011-09-21T15:49:16Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > Back to the OP’s premise: not a chance. The only scenario where the original X-Men, or any iteration of the X-Men, can beat the Legion, even limited to a pre-Jim Shooter roster, is if a) Professor X shuts down the minds of the Legion or b) if the Legion is written as complete idiots. Various iterations of Phoenix are also arbitrarily powerful, quite possibly to the point of outweighing the Kryptonian-types. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/73 "2011-09-21T15:54:54Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Various iterations of Phoenix are also arbitrarily powerful, quite possibly to the point of outweighing the Kryptonian-types. Well, the Phoenix-Force is (in some continuities) on par with such beings as Eternity, Death, and the Living Tribunal, as one of the fundamental forces of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/74 "2011-09-21T17:24:13Z")
Arguing powers is almost pointless. This fight boils down to preparedness and willingness to utilize fatal application of technique immediately. Professor X and Iceman both could end the fight before it begins. The former through the obvious techniques of simply shutting down the brain, the latter by freezing the water in the cells of the opponents. I’m not sure about Kryptonian biology, but if they are bags of water like we are, having every cell wall suddenly rupture from an eruption of ice crystals ought to do for them as well. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/75 "2011-09-21T17:30:58Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Arguing powers is almost pointless. This fight boils down to preparedness and willingness to utilize fatal application of technique immediately. > > Professor X and Iceman both could end the fight before it begins. The former through the obvious techniques of simply shutting down the brain, the latter by freezing the water in the cells of the opponents. I’m not sure about Kryptonian biology, but if they are bags of water like we are, having every cell wall suddenly rupture from an eruption of ice crystals ought to do for them as well. Powered-up Kryptonians are pretty much immune to ice attacks. It won’t do much to Sun Boy either. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/76 "2011-09-21T18:25:00Z")
The Legion have also been prepped and trained against telepathic attacks, so unless Xavier goes nuclear from the very first instant, Imra will have a chance to shut him down instead, or at least block his attack. Then it’s all over for the mutants. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/77 "2011-09-21T19:20:44Z")
Is that the siren of the Nerd Police I hear in the distance? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/78 "2011-09-21T19:33:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Powered-up Kryptonians are pretty much immune to ice attacks. It won’t do much to Sun Boy either. Or Blok. Or Wildfire. Might not go through Brainy’s shield. Not sure I’ve ever seen Iceman do such a thing in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/79 "2011-09-21T19:35:53Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Or Blok. Or Wildfire. Might not go through Brainy’s shield. Not sure I’ve ever seen Iceman do such a thing in any case. In the “Planetary/X-Men crossover: Bobby Drake and Elijah Snow swap techniques!” ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780/80 "2011-09-21T19:39:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, are Professor X’s telepathic powers sufficiently overwhelming compared to Saturn Girl’s? What the latter’s most impressive pre-1964 feat? > > Otherwise, any of Superboy/Supergirl/Mon-El/Colossal Boy/Ultra Boy wipes out the original five X-Men, solo. Friendly amendment: Mon-El and Brainiac-5 beat the original X-Men in a walkover. Dampening telepathic powers is a specialty of Brainy’s. The non-Kryptonite vulnerable Mon-El takes care of the rest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-original-x-men-vs-the-silver-age-legion-of-super-heroes/596780.md?page=5)