# The origins of the Bible **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2001, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089 "2001-08-25T14:18:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/21 "2001-09-01T14:57:25Z")
I didn’t know they had printing presses back then, in order to print books. ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/22 "2001-09-01T15:16:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **The matter was finally “officially” decided around 473 in a council at Rome…** AFAIK there was not yet a schism between the eastern and western church. Why then do the OT canons of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches differ? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/23 "2001-09-01T15:21:54Z")
In Thomas Mann’s book _Joseph and His Brothers_, the first part called “The Tales of Jacob,” he has Joseph’s older brothers sitting around and one of them sings an old song with the words _And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt._ They remark to each other, That song was from the good old days, when men were men! A real man could go around and kill people and not be a wuss about it! Thomas Mann’s point was that this song was already ancient in the time of Jacob (the novel begins “Deep, very deep lies the well of the past. Shall we not call it immeasurable?”). This fragment of it was inserted in the book of Genesis, 4:23. This was all a long, long time before Moses. So some parts of Genesis are way older than others. What about the woman who wrote the _Book of J_? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/24 "2001-09-01T16:53:01Z")
> [@](#): > > And the Pentateuch wasn’t exactly “discovered” by Ezra and Nehemia. You are right. I was posting from memory and I somehow conflated the stories of Ezra and Nehemiah with the story of Josiah, Hilkiah, and Shaphan and the “finding” of the Book of the Law. I certainly did not intend to indicate that it was unknown prior to Nehemiah’s reforms. Even the story of Josiah strikes me as a bit of literary license, as I suspect that the record of the Law was kept even when the society was ignoring it. **RedNaxela** , thanks for the info. Is there some reference to the “Men of the Great Assembly” around? I have never encountered any reference to it except in **cmkeller** ’s (and now your) posts (and I definitely looked for it after it was first mentioned, over a year ago). **dqa** : > [@](#): > > Why then do the OT canons of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches differ? In what way do they differ? I have never encountered anyone who has made that claim, before. From the [Q&A Section](http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Canon-of-Scripture.html) of the [Orthodox Church in America](http://www.oca.org/) website: > [@](#): > > What is the position of the Orthodox Church regarding the books that the Protestant churches refer to as the Apocrypha? Maccabees, Tobit, Ecclesiasticus, etc. > > The Old Testament books to which you refer – know in the Orthodox Church as the “longer canon” rather than the “Apocrypha,” as they are known among the Protestants – are accepted by Orthodox Christianity as canonical scripture. These particular books are found only in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, but not in the Hebrew texts of the rabbis. > > These books – Tobit, Judah, more chapters of Esther and Daniel, the Books of Maccabees, the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon, the Book of Sirach, the Prophecy of Baruch, and the Prayer of Manasseh – are considered by the Orthodox to be fully part of the Old testament because they are part of the longer canon that was accepted from the beginning by the early Church. > > The same Canon [rule] of Scripture is used by the Roman Catholic Church. In the Jerusalem Bible (RC) these books are intermingled within the Old Testament Books and not placed separately as often in Protestant translations (e.g., KJV). They address the Orthodox/Catholic vs Protestant distinction while not refering to any Orthodox vs Catholic differences. What differences? ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/25 "2001-09-01T17:38:26Z")
My sources include a [website](http://clawww.lmu.edu/faculty/fjust/Bible/Heb-Xn-Bibles.htm) by a Jesuit professor at Loyola Marymount and an essay entitled “The Canons of the Bible” on p. 455(NT) of the New Oxford Annotated Bible (NRSV with Apocrypha) Third Edition, 2001. The latter includes a chart listing the Jewish, Protestant, and Roman Catholic/Orthodox Canon. At the bottom of the RC/Orthodox column, after listing all the books agreed upon by the two churches, it notes > [@](#): > > **Orthodox Canons generally include** > 1 & 2 Esdras > Prayer of Manasseh > Psalm 151 > 3 Maccabees > 4 Maccabees (as an Appendix) 2 Esdras appears merely to be a grouping together of Ezra and Nehemiah, but it looks like the rest are not included in the Catholic Canon. The site I listed above is pretty clear in its comparison. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/26 "2001-09-01T18:21:49Z")
OK, I found [Holy Scripture in the Eastern Orthodox Church](http://www.fr-d-serfes.org/orthodox/scripturesinthechurch.htm). It is written from a very specific viewpoint that is pretty well guaranteed to raise the hackles of Jews, Catholics, and Protestants. It _does_ seem to provide information on the differences (from the author’s perspective), but it is lacking a general overview of events and decisions outside his purview. I have not had a lot of exposure to Orthodox texts, so I do not have any specific insight into some of the differences mentioned. I will note that the Orthodox are not a monolithic organization with a single set of rules. Most of the Orthodox groups are laid out along somewhat ethnic/national boundaries and several are autocephalic (having their own head, not reporting to any other body), so there _may_ be differences in the Scriptural beliefs of different groups. ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/27 "2001-09-01T23:03:11Z")
[This Methodist site](http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon.stm) provides some interesting detail on various scriptural canons. It doesn’t delve too deeply into the nitty gritty of dates and conferences and so forth, and some of the external links are stale, but overall is an illuminating site for the OP. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/28 "2001-09-02T00:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I have never encountered any reference to it [Assembly of the Great] I should clarify: When Chaim referred to it some time in the last year or so, I went to look it up and found quite a few references to the _Anshei Kenesset HaGedolah_ with descriptions of their calling out (on several occasions over several hundred years) and their impact on the Sanhedrin, the setting of dates for certain practices of worship, and their selection of Simon the Hsmonean as ruler, etc. What I have not found is a description of their activities in regards to helping to establish a canon (or rules for selecting a canon). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/29 "2001-09-04T04:37:53Z")
tomndebb: > [@](#): > > . What I have not found is a description of their activities in regards to helping to establish a canon (or rules for selecting a canon). Jewish history books written from the Orthodoc perspective invariably point to them as the formalizers of the Jewish canon. One that I currently have at home is _Echoes of Glory_ by Rabbi Berel Wein; it’s mentioned on page 14. As yet, I’m not certain where the primary source for the attribution is, but I can certainly try to trace it…I’m guessing Maimonides’ _Introduction to Talmud_, but I’ll look it up and post when I’m certain. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/30 "2001-09-04T21:25:36Z")
Here is a very good essay on the origins of the Bible: [The Bible and Christianity - The Historical Origins](http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm) ---
**Author:** ![ggronholz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@ggronholz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ggronholz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089/31 "2001-09-18T12:22:26Z")
Thanks to everyone who sent replys to my post. I have found many wonderful and useful sources to answer my questions. I hope this conversation can continue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-origins-of-the-bible/78089.md?page=1)