# The Orville Season 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted\ **Created:** [December 31, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966 "2018-12-31T06:20:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/821 "2019-03-03T21:26:09Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Woops, double post. You must have really been feeling it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/822 "2019-03-03T21:28:47Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > “See ya later. And remember, [twenty four is the gateway to heroic salvation](http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/143.htm)!” “hey - when we get back to earth we should meet at \” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/823 "2019-03-03T21:30:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The problem with “13 button salute” isn’t because it’s obvious, it’s because the robots had clearly read the book. There’s no intrinsic reason that “13 button salute” would be any weirder than “21 gun salute” or “high fives all round” to an alien race. The entire way its stated makes it way too obvious - it was forced. Better to just tell him he loved him. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/824 "2019-03-03T21:41:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The problem with “13 button salute” isn’t because it’s obvious, it’s because the robots had clearly read the book. There’s no intrinsic reason that “13 button salute” would be any weirder than “21 gun salute” or “high fives all round” to an alien race. [Thirteen button salute.](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_U.S._Navy_slang) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/825 "2019-03-03T21:41:24Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I only saw one Kaylon with orange eyes. All the rest, apart from Isaac, and including Primary, had red eyes. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Go watch it again. They weren’t red. EDIT: Here’s a screenshot: [https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124523/6818592-the+orville+kaylons.jpg](https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124523/6818592-the+orville+kaylons.jpg) Zoom in if you must, but they are orange. Here is Primary: [![](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/orville/images/6/6e/Kaylon_Primary.jpg) ](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/orville/images/6/6e/Kaylon_Primary.jpg) More clearly a red shade. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/826 "2019-03-03T21:52:53Z")
Was this guy “Primary” of the attacking fleet, or of all the Kaylons? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/827 "2019-03-03T21:58:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Was this guy “Primary” of the attacking fleet, or of all the Kaylons? Implied to be the “Primary” of the entire species, but if they said later he was only the Primary of the attacking fleet it wouldn’t directly contradict anything (I think). ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/828 "2019-03-03T22:15:51Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Go watch it again. They weren’t red. > > EDIT: Here’s a screenshot: > [https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124523/6818592-the+orville+kaylons.jpg](https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124523/6818592-the+orville+kaylons.jpg) > > Zoom in if you must, but they are orange. > > Here is Primary: > [https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/orville/images/6/6e/Kaylon\_Primary.jpg](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/orville/images/6/6e/Kaylon_Primary.jpg) > > More clearly a red shade. If you insist. There was also clearly one with amber eyes. That’s what I assumed you meant by orange eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/829 "2019-03-04T02:21:35Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Early on in the series, Isaac is quite clear that he is acting like a typical (though superintelligent) Union officer (which includes acting like he cares about human life) because it is his assignment from the Kaylon to do so. Going back to his normal behavior when his assignment is over isn’t changing character - we see the change in character as he turns out to have developed actual concern about human life (particularly the lives of the kids) later in the episode. When did Isaac develop real concern for Ty, say? If it was _prior to_ this episode, then why did he drop Ty’s drawing on the ground in this episode? Had he kept the drawing, that would have been a good hint for the viewer that it was really Isaac, and he really cares about Ty at some level. Instead it would be a red herring under this interpretation. If it was \*during \*this episode, then that’s one hell of an about face. It’s one thing for him to be against exterminating humans, but another for the turning point to be saving Ty and saying “I won’t let them hurt you, Ty”. That really seems to be trying to tell the viewer that Isaac genuinely cares about Ty specifically. It doesn’t really work either way you look at it. Once again though, I loved both episodes. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/830 "2019-03-04T02:26:26Z")
I agree that narratively those things are at odds. But it’s plausible that someone almost completely unsentimental would give no regard for the physical copy of someone’s drawing (having already perfectly committed to memory) but at the same time not wishing actual harm on that person. It’s true that it muddles the narrative/thematic point they’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/831 "2019-03-04T02:39:57Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If it was _prior to_ this episode, then why did he drop Ty’s drawing on the ground in this episode? Isaac’s a computer. Why would he care about a printout of an image he has perfectly scanned and can re-print as needed? (A drawing isn’t a printout to us, but to Isaac it probably is. Also, by “re-print” I mean he could physically draw the exact image himself in probably under a minute.) > [@SlackerInc](#): > > A cool detail about the show the director revealed on the podcast: unlike most shows, “The Orville” has all its scripts done before any are shot. So when they come up with story ideas later in the season, they go back and sprinkle foreshadowing or setup for them in the early scripts. So it’s not so much that they plan ahead, as that they were able to use omniscient 20/20 hindsight. Well, at least that explains why Halston Sage had to be replaced by the same character. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/832 "2019-03-04T02:52:30Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > If you insist. There was also clearly one with amber eyes. That’s what I assumed you meant by orange eyes. Hmm I missed the amber one, I wonder if it was designed for a special purpose? That’s interesting, thanks. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/833 "2019-03-04T03:26:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > When did Isaac develop real concern for Ty, say? > > If it was _prior to_ this episode, then why did he drop Ty’s drawing on the ground in this episode? Had he kept the drawing, that would have been a good hint for the viewer that it was really Isaac, and he really cares about Ty at some level. Instead it would be a red herring under this interpretation. > > If it was \*during \*this episode, then that’s one hell of an about face. It’s one thing for him to be against exterminating humans, but another for the turning point to be saving Ty and saying “I won’t let them hurt you, Ty”. That really seems to be trying to tell the viewer that Isaac genuinely cares about Ty specifically. > > It doesn’t really work either way you look at it. > > Once again though, I loved both episodes. **Ellis Dee** and **SenorBeef** have both said pretty much what I wanted to say, but I’ll say it my own way anyway. As I see it, Isaac doesn’t fully understand human emotions (we saw that in the episode in which Dr. Finn and Isaac began their dating); therefore he doesn’t understand that to a human, the physical drawing has an emotional weight. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about Ty continuing to live. I suspect that if Primary had ordered Isaac to destructively record Ty’s brain so that Ty’s personality could be placed in a Kaylon body, things would have gone much differently… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/834 "2019-03-04T03:59:17Z")
What’s the evidence that Isaac knew all along the plan was to exterminate humans, or even that Prime knew all along? > [@EllisDee](#): > > Isaac’s a computer. Why would he care about a printout of an image he has perfectly scanned and can re-print as needed? > > (A drawing isn’t a printout to us, but to Isaac it probably is. Also, by “re-print” I mean he could physically draw the exact image himself in probably under a minute.) > > Well, at least that explains why Halston Sage had to be replaced by the same character. Good points. Although doesn’t this include the script that wrote her out of the show? Or I suppose that just required a little rewriting rather than a lot. > [@Mijin](#): > > Isaac’s behaviour didn’t make sense. I thought the twist would be someone else was controlling his body in Part 1. If it was him all along…what the hell?! This is exactly why I complained that in the first part of the two parter, they “wrecked” Isaac’s character. The way he acted after being revived (the first time, on Kaylon) is hard to square with the character’s growth in past episodes as fulfilled in the second part. However, given the corner they put themselves in narratively, what they did in the second part was the least worst way of wriggling out of it IMO. I’m just going to choose not to think too hard about his callousness. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/835 "2019-03-04T04:09:52Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > . . . It’s one thing for him to be against exterminating humans, but another for the turning point to be saving Ty and saying “I won’t let them hurt you, Ty”. That really seems to be trying to tell the viewer that Isaac genuinely cares about Ty specifically. . . Human emotion can be tricky, particularly if you are not experienced with it. It’s one thing to go along with exterminating all biologicals. It’s another to see one that you care about exterminated in front of you, or worse, being forced to do it yourself. And it could be even trickier if you don’t realized that you actually care for them. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/836 "2019-03-04T04:10:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Good points. Although doesn’t this include the script that wrote her out of the show? Or I suppose that just required a little rewriting rather than a lot. When watching that episode, I had the feeling that the entire final piece of Alara talking to the captain and then hugging goodbye every crewmember who ever heard of the Orville was all added after the fact. As in, what they aired was the normal 43(ish) minute episode they originally wrote and shot, plus an interminable 4(ish) minute add-on scene that they shot later after they decided to write her out. The “limited commercial interruptions” factor helped simplify that deal, I think. And if you’re combing through the episodes looking for a good place to get rid of Alara, the end of the Alara episode makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/837 "2019-03-04T04:21:00Z")
Good point. And then they write an introduction scene for the new security chief, and we’re done. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/838 "2019-03-04T04:33:44Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Hmm I missed the amber one, I wonder if it was designed for a special purpose? That’s interesting, thanks. 🙂 Here is a couple of stills from the show: one shows more than one amber one (beside Isaac and a red eye for comparison) and another shot with three or more red eyes, which is how I remember it. [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190304/3147c673ec2f9e4b474f7ca3fb9945d7.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190304/3147c673ec2f9e4b474f7ca3fb9945d7.jpg) [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190304/ddca5b65d92a112e555a310748e3fac1.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190304/ddca5b65d92a112e555a310748e3fac1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/839 "2019-03-04T04:53:14Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > **Ellis Dee** and **SenorBeef** have both said pretty much what I wanted to say, but I’ll say it my own way anyway. > > As I see it, Isaac doesn’t fully understand human emotions (we saw that in the episode in which Dr. Finn and Isaac began their dating); therefore he doesn’t understand that to a human, the physical drawing has an emotional weight. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about Ty continuing to live. I suspect that if Primary had ordered Isaac to destructively record Ty’s brain so that Ty’s personality could be placed in a Kaylon body, things would have gone much differently… I still disagree. e.g. From a narrative / story writing point of view. When he drops the picture, and the music makes an ominous tone, clearly we the viewer are meant to be thinking “Oh no, he really _doesn’t_ care about Ty, it was a lie all along!” or something like “Is this really ISAAC?” If later, the explanation is merely “Well, it’s ISAAC, and he cares about Ty, but he’s an android so you can’t read too much into any particular behaviour like dropping a drawing” it’s pretty lazy storywriting: we the viewer have been given misleading information for no purpose other than to set up a (double) twist. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/840 "2019-03-04T05:01:43Z")
I agree with what you’re saying. It’s thematically messy, but practically justifiable. That’s bad storytelling, but not necessarily a plot hole. But you’re right, if you break down Isaac’s motivations, it doesn’t add up convincingly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966.md?page=43)