# The Orville Season 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted\ **Created:** [December 31, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966 "2018-12-31T06:20:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1081 "2019-04-02T02:47:40Z")
I finally got the chance to watch the episode “Lasting Impressions” (I’ve been out of town and then very busy). I thought it one of the best to date. But then, I’m an incurable romantic, so the waterworks were turned on, even though I knew that they would be from the moment they set it up in the opening scenes. What I especially liked about the romance was the fact that they DIDN’T just redo Geordi La Forge and Leah Brahms. The whole bit about how Gordon literally CANNOT have the woman he’s fallen in love with because she’s a result of being the person who stuck with Greg, and if you take that away, she’s not who he loves was very powerful. As always, the show sums it up neatly, this time with Kelly’s speech to Gordon about us being the sum of our interactions with others. The show doesn’t ever try to be particularly subtle, but it’s learning how to deliver a message without being seriously trite. I think one of the things they haven’t really explored deeply in the show is the extent to which their society must have learned to deal with people having holodeck fantasies like Gordon’s. I mean, I can think of a number of SF stories that deal with the implications of being able to check out of reality into fantasy anytime you want. I felt that the hostility that Gordon got from everyone else about what he was doing was probably a reflection of the fact that there is some sort of societal bias against immersing oneself in fantasy. Notice that even Gordon accepts that he’d be in trouble if Laura was just a made-up program. But he tries desperately to establish that what he is doing is different qualitatively, because she’s not actually made up. In essence, he’s having a one-sided love affair with a 400 year old woman. And when he realizes that the ONLY way to have her the way he wants is to totally change “who” she is, to program her, he loses all interest in the idea. The B plot about addiction was hilarious. I love the sheepish looks on their faces when Claire asks who wants the shot first, and they are both raising their hands. Also, the throwaway bit about “WTF” make me laugh out loud. That it was “Tuvok” making the erroneous pronouncement just made it that much more funny. All shows, especially science fiction shows, take time to hit their stride. Some take years (_ST:TNG_, I’m looking at YOU). Pretty clearly, the writers of this show have found their sweet spot as this season has progressed, and we are being treated to a succession of decent to good shows. Let’s hope it continues! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1082 "2019-04-02T03:05:53Z")
I was hoping that Gordon would find out that Laura was his great-great-grat-great-great-great grandmother. 'Oh, my god. I slept with my grandmother! :eek: ’ ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1083 "2019-04-02T03:51:57Z")
I was actually glad they didn’t do that. It ends up feeling like meaningless shock value to me when stories kinda go in that direction. I actually think the show is trying to make a serious delve into being real sci fi with relatively sophisticated ideas. Recently, when the Orville has done stories with similarities to TNG in subject, the Orville treated it in a more sophisticated way. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1084 "2019-04-03T14:49:34Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > …I feel like there should probably be a running joke about the simulator where we basically acknowledge that people are using their simulator time every week to bang the shit out of holo-everything. Just like non-stop crazy ass orgies going on in the holodeck 24/7… “When VR lets Joe Sixpack make love to Claudia Schiffer by the hour in his rumpus room, it’s gonna make crack look like Sanka.” - Dennis Miller ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1085 "2019-04-03T15:40:57Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What I especially liked about the romance was the fact that they DIDN’T just redo Geordi La Forge and Leah Brahms. The whole bit about how Gordon literally CANNOT have the woman he’s fallen in love with because she’s a result of being the person who stuck with Greg, and if you take that away, she’s not who he loves was very powerful. Yeah, I’d have to agree this might actually have been the best episode ever. It was a mature, intelligent take on the concept of love. The Orville didn’t do much work in terms of original universe-building; it’s just the Federation of Planets with Seth MacFarlane pop culture jokes. Where it excels is in deftly handling issues of personality and emotions - in that regard it’s much more consistently good than any Star Trek series. > [@](#): > > I think one of the things they haven’t really explored deeply in the show is the extent to which their society must have learned to deal with people having holodeck fantasies like Gordon’s. Star Trek, of course, touched on this with Reg Barclay, but didn’t really explain anything beyond Barclay or why the other crewmembers weren’t addicted. I mean, I think we can all accept that if your workplaces suddenly had holodecks, you’d need fire hoses to wash out the… uh, well, you know. There would be fistfights to get in. The holodeck is such a convenient narrative device, though, that MacFarlane couldn’t resist putting it in. If there must be a fanwank, I would imagine that after decades, maybe even generations, of seemingly free holofantasy, it’s just no more remarkable to people in the 25th century than TV shows and movies are to us. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1086 "2019-04-03T16:04:04Z")
The Orville’s Earth, like Trek, is a post-scarcity utopia. One of the great things about the holodeck fantasy is that you can have whatever you want. I imagine this isn’t quite as alluring when you live in a world you can pretty much have that anyway. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1087 "2019-04-03T16:34:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I seriously doubt there was an “arc” to their clothes. They were eye candy. If they could have worked Barbara Eden’s genie outfit into the series they would have done it in a New York minute. Yeah, I agree. Her costuming was straight-up fan service. What was the nod to her being other than factory-issue human was that little cosmetic Borg-thing by her eye. As far as the holodeck is concerned, I think the post-scarcity part is important. I mean, nobody’s going to use it to go virtual skiing, or rock climbing, or whatever- they can just DO that for real. I imagine it would be used more along the lines of doing stuff that literally can’t be done- spending a day at Hogwarts as a wizard, fighting in a Saxon shield-wall, piloting a P-51 versus the Luftwaffe, etc… ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1088 "2019-04-04T07:21:58Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I mean, nobody’s going to use it to go virtual skiing, or rock climbing, or whatever- they can just DO that for real. I don’t know, those sound like excellent uses of a holodeck to me. I’d add any kind of speed motorsport: nascar, motocross, indycar, speedboat, etc… Imagine flipping through a car & driver magazine and being able to test drive any car that catches your fancy, driving as crazy as you please without concern for crashing. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1089 "2019-04-04T08:13:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Star Trek, of course, touched on this with Reg Barclay, but didn’t really explain anything beyond Barclay or why the other crewmembers weren’t addicted. I mean, I think we can all accept that if your workplaces suddenly had holodecks, you’d need fire hoses to wash out the… uh, well, you know. There would be fistfights to get in. Right; the true impact of such technology is really understated because it would lead to a reality too different for the viewers to relate to. Barclay uses the holodeck for romantic fantasies – in real life everyone would, and if you could actually use it for \*sex \*it would probably lead to a big drop to the number of relationships, and the birth rate, in the real world. He also uses it to act out some real world situations and reduce his anxiety – in real life this would actually be _too_ effective; if I’ve acted out the same situation many times, I may treat it too casually when it happens “for real” and say or do something regretful. And of course being confused, momentarily at least, about whether one is in the real world, would be a common problem, and holodecks would need some method to guard around that e.g. all projections must by law include some visual or audio cue that it’s a simulation. > [@](#): > > If there must be a fanwank, I would imagine that after decades, maybe even generations, of seemingly free holofantasy, it’s just no more remarkable to people in the 25th century than TV shows and movies are to us. True, but I would compare it in scope to something more like the internet. Because as well as “holofantasy” you could also have holoworkspaces, holoconferencing, holocommunities, holohomes. It wouldn’t just be a standalone appliance for one use unless we contrive something like super high power requirements. I know I sound like an evangelist, I don’t mean to. It’s just when you think about what vivid VR would mean for society, the potential impact is huge. The only limit is your imagination™ ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1090 "2019-04-04T12:46:41Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > True, but I would compare it in scope to something more like the internet. Because as well as “holofantasy” you could also have holoworkspaces, holoconferencing, holocommunities, holohomes. > It wouldn’t just be a standalone appliance for one use unless we contrive something like super high power requirements. Exactly. Imagine if your house was just a big holodeck. Even without sex fantasies, imagine every house being a literal mansion. Dinner time? Full size professional kitchen, huge formal dinging room. Movie night? Full-size theater. Workout time? Complete gym with every machine ever conceived. Want to read? Huge library with every book ever written on the shelves. Bedtime? King-sized bed for everybody! Tired of your decorating scheme? Snap your fingers, complete remodeling! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1091 "2019-04-04T13:44:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Yeah, I agree. Her costuming was straight-up fan service. What was the nod to her being other than factory-issue human was that little cosmetic Borg-thing by her eye. > > As far as the holodeck is concerned, I think the post-scarcity part is important. I mean, nobody’s going to use it to go virtual skiing, or rock climbing, or whatever- they can just DO that for real. > > I imagine it would be used more along the lines of doing stuff that literally can’t be done- spending a day at Hogwarts as a wizard, fighting in a Saxon shield-wall, piloting a P-51 versus the Luftwaffe, etc… Of course it was “fan-service” and there was no desire by any of the show-runners to change that aspect. AND that outfit was also intentionally designed to give, what [Jeri Ryan described as](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jeri-ryan-body-of-proof-star-trek-voyager_n_1413141) a “mechanical non-human look of Seven.” The look was no question sexualized but it was _intimidatingly_ sexual, not vulnerably or intimately so. If Seven was objectified it was an an object that some boys might have fantasized about but also been very very scared of. Changing it was not going to happen because the look was popular with certain fans. And that mechanical non-human look worked for who the character was in comparison to any conceivable alternative. I invite you to suggest thinking of the alternatives and the in-universe explanation for the change. She was not eligible to wear a uniform and contriving an explanation for to wear one would have required the character accepting some specific status with human structure. She was orthogonal to human structures. What would have motivated Seven to pick a non-uniform human clothing choice and what sort of choice would she have taken? Why? How do you think that could have happened in universe without it making some significant comment on the character’s arc, specifically on the central theme of her acceptance/non-acceptance of a place within human social structures and of being fully human with all that that implied to her? Please be specific. Would you just have some malfunction of her outfit occur that she had no choice but to start wearing something else? Just have the costume change one ep with no in universe explanation offered, or a Klingonesque “we don’t talk about it.”? As far as the holodeck discussion … a bit reminiscent but much less extreme of whether or not you’d choose to stay in the Matrix or live in reality. And of one of the episodes on the Netflix show “Love, Sex, and Robots.” Even today there are those who prefer to live in their basements playing fantasy games on line than deal with the anxiety and risks of real world social interactions. But I think _most_ people would choose a real person with flaws and who often said “not tonight honey” over an AI supermodel (virtual reality or robotic, male, female or fluid in ways that we cannot even imagine) who was available for sex all the time. No matter how good the simulacrum awareness that it was not real would make it less preferable to a more warty reality, unless reality was quite bad indeed. The best possible sex doll still is handicapped in the minds of most users by knowledge of its being a doll. Of course not all … there is a market. And those who did start to cross the line would be subject to social norms ranging from concern to ostracization, which the Orville ep demonstrated … as did the movie “Her” with the ex’s reaction to being told of the main character’s new relationship. People today willing to spend many thousands for the best of currently available sex doll technology (they socialize with you as well as being very very life-like) are not very willing to let many others know they have one. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1092 "2019-04-04T16:12:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Even today there are those who prefer to live in their basements playing fantasy games on line than deal with the anxiety and risks of real world social interactions. But I think _most_ people would choose a real person with flaws and who often said “not tonight honey” over an AI supermodel (virtual reality or robotic, male, female or fluid in ways that we cannot even imagine) who was available for sex all the time. No matter how good the simulacrum awareness that it was not real would make it less preferable to a more warty reality, unless reality was quite bad indeed. The best possible sex doll still is handicapped in the minds of most users by knowledge of its being a doll. Of course not all … there is a market. > > And those who did start to cross the line would be subject to social norms ranging from concern to ostracization, which the Orville ep demonstrated … as did the movie “Her” with the ex’s reaction to being told of the main character’s new relationship. People today willing to spend many thousands for the best of currently available sex doll technology (they socialize with you as well as being very very life-like) are not very willing to let many others know they have one. > > IMHO. I would say a better comparison right now is pornography, not sex dolls. While it’s still not dinner-party conversation, we all know pretty much everyone looks at internet porn from time to time. They are some of the most visited sites on the internet. Which is a _big_ change in my lifetime. It’s still a private thing, but seen as fairly normal now. Sex dolls are still very much in the uncanny valley, but I can imagine several pathways they might migrate to at least the same degree of social acceptability, certainly on an Orville timespan. And for people preferring the real deal, yeah many will. But I could imagine a time where the majority of people with access to such technology, will use it at least some of the time. We’re not wired to be attracted to realism per se, and bots and VR may eventually be better at pressing many of our physical and psychological buttons than other humans. IMHO ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1093 "2019-04-04T16:18:22Z")
Adding to that last bit … part of the attraction to Gordon was specifically that he could think of her _as a real person recreated_, not a program. The writing expressing it may have been stilted but he clearly was defending his aberrant behavior with that justification. Those are strong norms now and would continue to be. (You can also look to San Junipero in Black Mirror for an exploration as well. It isn’t like the concept is not explored outside of the Star Trek related universe.) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1094 "2019-04-04T16:27:29Z")
There are plenty of examples in fiction of people falling in love with artificial lifeforms or VR though, and the group eventually accepting that, e.g. Isaac and Claire ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1095 "2019-04-04T16:31:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I would say a better comparison right now is pornography, not sex dolls. > > While it’s still not dinner-party conversation, we all know pretty much everyone looks at internet porn from time to time. … Let’s go with that. Looking at porn is more normalized sure. Preferring porn to real life relationships, even far less than fully satisfying ones? Not so much so. Yes, it happens, and not just to Bortus, but it is, and I think will be, considered aberrant. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1096 "2019-04-04T16:52:06Z")
But this is not the point being made. Porn cannot substitute for a relationship because it can only partially fulfill one facet of a relationship. Future VR and bots are a whole other thing. For these, getting over the hump of social acceptability, and becoming an acceptable substitute for real relationships, will be more or less the same thing. Beyond this, I suggest we branch this to a separate thread (get a room, if you will :D) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1097 "2019-04-04T21:04:49Z")
> [@bump](#): > > …As far as the holodeck is concerned, I think the post-scarcity part is important. I mean, nobody’s going to use it to go virtual skiing, or rock climbing, or whatever- they can just DO that for real. > > I imagine it would be used more along the lines of doing stuff that literally can’t be done- spending a day at Hogwarts as a wizard, fighting in a Saxon shield-wall, piloting a P-51 versus the Luftwaffe, etc… Starfleet personnel are shown to have used the holodecks for non-sexual adventures all the time, even for semi-dangerous stuff (hence references to the mortality failsafes). > **[Denubian Alps](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Denubian_Alps)** > > The Denubian Alps was a mountain range. The mountains were covered by a deep powder of snow which was ideal for skiing. In 2364, Wesley Crusher and eleven other students were given skiing lessons by a ski instructor in a holodeck simulation of this... > **[Orbital skydiving](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Orbital_skydiving)** > > Orbital skydiving was a recreational activity that involved leaping from a spacecraft at exospheric altitudes. (VOY: "Extreme Risk") In the alternate reality, James T. Kirk, Hikaru Sulu and Chief Engineer Olson performed a space-dive in 2258 in order... > **[Battle of Britain](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Britain)** > > "We should have left the holosuite hours ago." "What? And let the Jerries cross the Channel? Never!" - Julian Bashir and Miles O'Brien The Battle of Britain was an aerial conflict that occurred on Earth in 1940 and 1941 during World War II. It was... ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1098 "2019-04-05T02:54:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Anybody else think Isaac is quietly the MVP? I think Isaac is my favorite character on the show, as well. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1099 "2019-04-05T11:40:53Z")
Cool. I never expected him to have this kind of character arc when I made that comment! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966/1100 "2019-04-05T13:12:12Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But this is not the point being made. > Porn cannot substitute for a relationship because it can only partially fulfill one facet of a relationship. > > Future VR and bots are a whole other thing. For these, getting over the hump of social acceptability, and becoming an acceptable substitute for real relationships, will be more or less the same thing. > > Beyond this, I suggest we branch this to a separate thread (get a room, if you will :D) Feel free to not respond but I think it very much belongs in thread. And I’d disagree. The difference is made within universe - its the difference between Bortus’ porn programs and the relationship of Claire and Issac. Issac has autonomy even more importantly than his sentience and intelligence. Whether or not Free Will exists he has as much of what we think of as it as any human does. He broke off a relationship as his choice, and did what it took to restart it as his choice as well. At some after humans accept AIs as sentient beings with Free Will and the rights to exercise decisions and choices based on that Free Will, then yes, those relationships may become normalized as theirs is. Porn VR and sexbots do not make those choices and have no Free Will. If sentient they function as slaves. That I think (at least hope for the last) is not normalized to prefer over other interactions. (Data as well crossed that threshold, even if his methods of pleasuring were preprogrammed.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-season-2/826966.md?page=56)