# The Orville-Seth McFarlane **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 17, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814 "2017-05-17T03:28:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/601 "2017-09-27T18:45:20Z")
It occurs to me then the episode should have ended with them finding a Moclan female and discovering she’s built like a 350lb linebacker with a voice deeper than Paul Robeson on Xanax. This would require a trivial rewrite, doing away with that “females are weaker” guff and the cube-crushing by the pixie security officer (shouldn’t that sphere have been red-hot after being reshaped like that?) The female could still be the famous author. Maybe females - or who the Moclans call “female”; the analogy to human females would be far more tenuous - are (or at least believed to be) more hormone-driven to artistic creation than what we’d call STEM fields and current Moclan culture values the latter more than the former. It’s still not a great situation, but at least it puts a spin on it beyond the superficial knee-jerkery. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/602 "2017-09-27T20:06:21Z")
But then it’s just Star Trek again. It’s a deux ex machina to prove the silly, backwards aliens were wrong all along! Females are even more male than males! Change of heart happens! Good guys win! This episode chose instead to actually have the case to the way such a thing would; they try their best but a whole species of people said “yeah, well, we’re sticking with the way we do things.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/603 "2017-09-27T20:11:01Z")
IMO the real problem with this episode is that it tried to turn the situation in a “man vs woman” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/604 "2017-09-27T21:39:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But then it’s just Star Trek again. It’s a deux ex machina to prove the silly, backwards aliens were wrong all along! Females are even more male than males! Change of heart happens! Good guys win! No, it would prove the _humans_ are wrong in assuming what they think of as “male” and “female” (and how persons of these genders should be treated) was universal. It was deliberately vague what exactly the differences were between a “male” and “female” Moclan (and muddied somewhat by having the “females” played by what looked like a female human infant and a female human adult) especially since it was made obvious that female Moclans aren’t needed for reproduction. Having the female Moclan turn out to be (superficially, to our eyes) hyper-masculine also challenges the assumptions made so far, where we’ve been led to believe male Moclans are tough and strong and combative because they kind of look and sound like it, and we just assume that a Xelayan female boxing a Moclan male would be some clash of titans, when it’s just as likely that Lt. Commander Bortus doesn’t actually care for fighting and isn’t good at it and vaguely resents the assumption otherwise, like a tall black human man being tired of people assuming he’s good at basketball. Already, we’ve been spoonfed the “assumption-challenge” in which Halston Sage plays a character with more physical power than a bulldozer (I expect any episode in which she has to perform an unlikely feat will contain a handy expositional reminder that she’s from a high-gee planet) and which so far has been played mostly for laughs. The series should have gone further - we’re told not to assume Xelayan females are weak, why not discover that Moclan “females” aren’t what we typically think of as female, but there happen to be two common descriptors in English for anatomical configuration and the Moclans, for convenience, adopted “male” and “female” as labels even though the match isn’t really that good? > [@](#): > > This episode chose instead to actually have the case to the way such a thing would; they try their best but a whole species of people said “yeah, well, we’re sticking with the way we do things.” Oh, I wouldn’t have changed the ending. I might have had the Moclan female look at the humans with contempt and tell them to stop being so provincial. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/605 "2017-09-28T05:42:15Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > So your assertion is that a society shouldn’t question another society’s values when those values run counter to deeply held mores of the first society? In other words, the United States shouldn’t question, say, the (until today) rule in Saudi Arabia that precluded women from driving? That countries that had abolished slavery prior to 1860 shouldn’t have been questioning/condemning the existence of slavery in the United States? I find that quite ridiculous as a basic assertion. > > The notion that anything some other culture does that is different from your own is okay, and shouldn’t be questioned is unsupportable, both logically and empirically. > > Further, the Moclans are members of a pan-galactic union, which means that they cannot simply hide behind their own customs and demand those customs be accepted without question. Those customs have the potential to influence the interactions of the members of the union. And you will notice that the show did a very good job of finally finding the right way to attempt intervention: rely upon the dispute resolution mechanisms of Moclan itself to deal with the issue. When the decision of the tribunal comes down, the officers of the Orville don’t protest, act disrespectful to the process or result, or otherwise lose sight of the fact that SOME method of resolving disputes has to exist, and its results have to prevail. One might suggest that THAT lesson was far more important for our current situation in the US than anything having to do with gender issues. Interacting with a different species from a different planet is completely different from interacting with different humans from the same planet (i.e. Earth). We know the context and history of different cultures on Earth; we have absolutely no idea the history and context of why the Moclan have only one gender, and the show chose to have a heavy-handed morality play about girls are just as good as boys instead of doing the interesting thing and examining a completely different planet and how they got to be the way they are. As for the conflict-resolution process, I still don’t think it should have gotten that far. I think it would have been a perfectly valid response from the parents of the female baby to just take their baby and go (although that does bring up the question of why they were trying to have a family on a ship that obviously doesn’t understand or respect their species). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/606 "2017-09-28T06:03:49Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > As for the conflict-resolution process, I still don’t think it should have gotten that far. I think it would have been a perfectly valid response from the parents of the female baby to just take their baby and go (although that does bring up the question of why they were trying to have a family on a ship that obviously doesn’t understand or respect their species). I was a little surprised that Bortus didn’t threaten to resign. Then again, I was vaguely expecting the effect of the Rudolph movie not to be convincing Bortus to give his daughter a chance, but rather that Bortus would instantly convert to fundamentalist Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/607 "2017-09-28T12:28:51Z")
I found this to be a thoughtful episode, and I liked that they didn’t say damn the torpedoes, she’s staying a girl. I’m finding the pop references a bit wearing. The show is set in 2428 or something, right? That would be like us referencing something that happened in the 1600s. Bortus being awestruck by Rudolph was funny, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/608 "2017-09-28T13:29:29Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Interacting with a different species from a different planet is completely different from interacting with different humans from the same planet (i.e. Earth). We know the context and history of different cultures on Earth; we have absolutely no idea the history and context of why the Moclan have only one gender, and the show chose to have a heavy-handed morality play about girls are just as good as boys instead of doing the interesting thing and examining a completely different planet and how they got to be the way they are. How is it different? First of all, to assert that we don’t know the context and history of how the Moclans reached their decision is silly; they are members of a Union of species; we would certainly know a considerable amount of their history, including why they are gender-specific in their culture. Second of all, the underlying idea remains the same. And you pointedly did NOT address the issues I brought up in my answer, cleverly trying to side-step them with your attempt to dismiss the situation as non-analogous. So I repeat them: Would you argue that we should ignore slavery in a culture that uses slaves (chattel slavery)? Or, as someone else asked you, should we ignore genital mutilation done to baby girls in order to reduce their sexual pleasure as adults, simply because of differences of cultural backgrounds? Your theory would ONLY apply at best in situations where we first contact a new species, and even THEN, arguing for our own moral viewpoints would never be wrong, though one should, of course, seek understanding of the rationale for a different species’ mores. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/609 "2017-09-28T13:29:51Z")
I finally got caught up, and I have to say: Where did this show come from? It’s better Star Trek than the current Star Trek. I would never have expected it from MacFarlane, or Fox. Was it perfect? No. But it was better than an average TNG or TOS, and better than 90% of Voyager. I can get behind this show. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/610 "2017-09-28T13:50:24Z")
Where did it come from? My impression is that it came from a true fan of the franchise. The Star Trek: Discovery show, on the other hand, is from a bunch of suits. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/611 "2017-09-28T13:51:29Z")
MacFarlane is a massive scifi nerd. His loving (but very MacFarlane) treatment of \*Star Wars \*shows that. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/612 "2017-09-28T13:56:16Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I’m finding the pop references a bit wearing. The show is set in 2428 or something, right? That would be like us referencing something that happened in the 1600s. Bortus being awestruck by Rudolph was funny, though. We still stage plays written in the 1600s, and make allusions to them all the time. Who’s to say the collected works of Cindi Lauper won’t be a bestseller in the 25th century. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/613 "2017-09-28T14:39:42Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > We still stage plays written in the 1600s, and make allusions to them all the time. Who’s to say the collected works of Cindi Lauper won’t be a bestseller in the 25th century. Reminds me of a _Time_ article about Star Trek which I think came out around 1994 and _Star Trek: Generations_. They included a timeline starting from around 1965 and Roddenberry’s early efforts to get the series off the ground and ran until the then-recent film, with an ellipses skipping ahead to the 23rd Century where _Star Trek_ is long-forgotten but a cult following has risen around _T. J. Hooker_. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/614 "2017-09-28T14:43:49Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > We still stage plays written in the 1600s, and make allusions to them all the time. Who’s to say the collected works of Cindi Lauper won’t be a bestseller in the 25th century. Most likely the Beatles but your point is valid. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/615 "2017-09-28T15:10:50Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Most likely the Beatles but your point is valid. Girls just wanna have fun in any century! ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/616 "2017-09-28T15:16:49Z")
But I can’t see a dance off in a holosuite set to medieval music. Then again, I don’t watch Dancing with the Stars, so who the hell knows. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/617 "2017-09-28T15:31:26Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > (although that does bring up the question of why they were trying to have a family on a ship that obviously doesn’t understand or respect their species). Because no one in the human sphere knew there was such a thing as a female Moclan, and the Moclans didn’t think that there would be any issue with converting the baby. They presented the request to the doctor as some routine request (the male circumcision comparison in the trial was apt for how they looked at it (but of course not how human culture looks at it (that being more female circumcision/FGM))). They were very surprised the doctor didn’t just do it, so this was the first time the question apparently ever arose. And staying on the ship post-crisis - he’s an officer in the Union navy. The spouse could potentially decide to leave (I’m unclear as to if he is in the service or just along as a spouse), but they are still in a committed relationship and decided to stay together. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/618 "2017-09-28T15:42:35Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > And staying on the ship post-crisis - he’s an officer in the Union navy. The spouse could potentially decide to leave (I’m unclear as to if he is in the service or just along as a spouse), but they are still in a committed relationship and decided to stay together. It looks like he is just a spouse. He wore no uniform, and was not removed from duty. I like that they stayed together and decided to work it out. And I loved the Rodolph toy! ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/619 "2017-09-28T15:49:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except not on the Union ship Orville. The Orville wasnt messing with what the Moclins did on their own planet, but they were arguing about a Union born child, one of whose parents didnt want the operation. Both parents wanted the operation until the humans on the Orville refused to honor Moclan society and engaged in a targeted campaign of harassment and propaganda against their own crewmate. Mallory even admitted to the other bridge crew that Bortas would be socially punished by the crew if he had continued to support the operation against human beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814/620 "2017-09-28T16:53:45Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Both parents wanted the operation until the humans on the Orville refused to honor Moclan society and engaged in a targeted campaign of harassment and propaganda against their own crewmate. Mallory even admitted to the other bridge crew that Bortas would be socially punished by the crew if he had continued to support the operation against human beliefs. Because when in Rome, do as the Romans. The Moclan is a Union officer on a Union ship, where such operation is illegal and unethical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-orville-seth-mcfarlane/786814.md?page=32)