# The other use of the word Thug - by rappers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462 "2015-11-02T21:28:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/61 "2015-11-03T01:14:19Z")
> [@bethewave](#): > > Oh, I see. I’m not sure that you do. It seems to me that you are being needlessly contrary and condescending. Perhaps I mischaracterize your comments, though… your sarcasm seems pretty evident. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/62 "2015-11-03T01:17:38Z")
> [@HeXen](#): > > That’s my feel of it because I haver personally seen youth that listen to such often, gain an attitude based off of it. > It’s like back in the day when that movie “Boyz in the hood” came out. I was at the theater that day seeing another movie and when I came out, cops where swarming the place because so many youths who came out of that theater after watching the movie, starting acting the fool and causing trouble. > > Not saying that movie glorified violence in the same way some rap lyrics do or elude to, but rather the subculture glorified it, friends that see or hear about being hard and find it cool and therefore pass that glorification onto others. Yes, well basically yes, except the express intent of that movie, I feel, was to criticize the “criminal” mindset… but overall, your point is correct. On the other hand, there is a long history of trying to quiet dissent on the part of African Americans. I think “gangsta rap” is a reaction, an outgrowth, of that stifling phenomena… ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/63 "2015-11-03T01:24:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > As a closing note, I do not think Tupac’s intent was necessarily to glorify crime and violence. It was to talk about his struggles and the struggles of black people (from his background) in an honest way. He spoke from the heart. He spoke directly. He was honest. That is why his message/music is so popular, with all kinds of people, of all races and income levels and experiences. This seems to undercut your entire argument. If you believe Tupac wasn’t intending to glorify crime and violence but rather talking about the struggles of black people, why don’t you extend that understanding to more rappers? You use tupac as your example of the glorification of everything criminal in rap, then in the next breath go on to contradict yourself. Who exactly are you even talking about then??😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/64 "2015-11-03T01:26:40Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > On the other hand, there is a long history of trying to quiet dissent on the part of African Americans. I think “gangsta rap” is a reaction, an outgrowth, of that stifling phenomena… And you want to see more criticism of this outgrowth? I’m really trying to follow you here but you seem to be all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/65 "2015-11-03T02:15:04Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > This seems to undercut your entire argument. If you believe Tupac wasn’t intending to glorify crime and violence but rather talking about the struggles of black people, why don’t you extend that understanding to more rappers? You use tupac as your example of the glorification of everything criminal in rap, then in the next breath go on to contradict yourself. Who exactly are you even talking about then??😕 > [@Ambivalid](#): > > And you want to see more criticism of this outgrowth? I’m really trying to follow you here but you seem to be all over the place. Well… I do tend to ramble… some people follow me, some people don’t. If you reject the idea that “gangsta rap” glorifies criminality and violence… I don’t know what to say… I think the title itself explains itself. [Gangsta Rap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangsta_rap) I know Wikipedia isin’t the best source. If you really really insist, I can try to find better sources. It’s a very complex topic. But at some level, yes, rappers should be held accountable for the message they produce. I didn’t say censored… I don’t know what to do. But they defiently need to be criticized more. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/66 "2015-11-03T02:21:37Z")
You claim both sides of the argument. It’s like you’re so scared of your position being called out and exposed, you instantly flip flop rather than try to defend that position. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/67 "2015-11-03T02:38:20Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > You claim both sides of the argument. It’s like you’re so scared of your position being called out and exposed, you instantly flip flop rather than try to defend that position. Or, perhaps, it is like Tupac inadvertently started a trend that he did not necessarily see the end that it would come to. In fact, his death by gunfire in a gang related shooting even glorifies his gangsta rap persona even more. Perhaps, instead of focusing on me, and my failings in rhetoric and logic, you could share your own thoughts on the topic of gangsta rap, thug life, and whether or not you think that influences young black men to emulate the lifestyle they hear in the music. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/68 "2015-11-03T02:41:23Z")
What about calling out bluegrass music for it’s violence? > [@](#): > > I asked my love to take a walk > Just a walk a little way > And as we walk, oh, may we talk > All about our wedding day > > Only say that you’ll be mine > In our home we’ll happy be > Down beside where the waters flow > On the banks of the Ohio > > I held a knife against her breast > As into my arms she pressed > She said Willie, don’t you murder me > I’m unprepared for eternity > > I took her by her lily white hand > And dragged her down that bank of sand > There I throwed her in to drown > I watched her as she floated down > > Was walking home tween twelve and one > Thinkin’ of what I had done > I killed a girl, my love you see > Because she would not marry me > > The very next morn about half past four > The Sheriff came knocked at my door > He said now young man come now and go > Down to the Banks of the Ohio ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/69 "2015-11-03T02:55:17Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > When Sean Hannity uses the term “Thug” to refer to a black person, there is an EXPLOSION on social media. When a rapper uses the word Thug all it does is sell more records. > > Why does social media explode for the first category and not the second? This is your OP, the first post. All you mention is ‘rappers using Thug to sell records’, no specifics given. > [@Robert163](#): > > Somehow, I doubt that is what Tupac was referring too… Here is your very next post in the thread, where you mention a rapper by name. Tupac is the only rapper you mention. > [@Robert163](#): > > Oh, I really like Tupac, both as a Rapper and as a person. But seeing as he was the first mega popular “gangsta” rapper, I can’t help but be a bit critical of his legacy… And you even _admit_ here that you are critical of Tupac’s legacy. > [@Robert163](#): > > OK… I’m not defending Hannity > > I’m criticizing the free pass we give rappers to glorify criminality and violence. They do get _some_ criticism, but, not that much really… Since the only rapper you’ve mentioned in this thread is Tupac, I’ve got to assume you think this “free pass” from criticism for glorifying crime and violence has been given to him as well. > [@Robert163](#): > > ok > > but the focus of _this_ thread is the double standard of letting rappers get a free pass when they use the word Thug… > > like I say, I am not very diplomatic, I apologize for being rude Again, just pointing out that you must mean Tupac has been the recipient of this “double standard” regarding use of Thug, since you’ve only named him as examples of such rappers. So now you are once again flipping and trying to say Tupac inadvertently started a trend that spun out of his control. I say pick an opinion dude. Does Tupac deserve criticism or was he actually trying to talk about the marginalized lives of many black people? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/70 "2015-11-03T03:44:06Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > This is your OP, the first post. All you mention is ‘rappers using Thug to sell records’, no specifics given. > > Here is your very next post in the thread, where you mention a rapper by name. Tupac is the only rapper you mention. > > And you even _admit_ here that you are critical of Tupac’s legacy. > > Since the only rapper you’ve mentioned in this thread is Tupac, I’ve got to assume you think this “free pass” from criticism for glorifying crime and violence has been given to him as well. > Again, just pointing out that you must mean Tupac has been the recipient of this “double standard” regarding use of Thug, since you’ve only named him as examples of such rappers. > > So now you are once again flipping and trying to say Tupac inadvertently started a trend that spun out of his control. I say pick an opinion dude. Does Tupac deserve criticism or was he actually trying to talk about the marginalized lives of many black people? Did you see the part where I asked about your opinion, the opinion of **Ambivalid** on this topic? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/71 "2015-11-03T03:51:42Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What about calling out bluegrass music for it’s violence? What about it? Are you going to deny that rap music glorifies crime and violence? Or are you going to try and change the subject by googling rock and roll lyrics that also mention violence? Or, maybe your point is exactly correct… Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps gangsta rap no more influences young black men to commit crime than how white kids in the 80’s listened to “breaking the law” by Judas Priest but still, more or less, stayed out of trouble. “I fought the law and the law won” is another song. Did white kids in the 80’s drive fast, over the speed limit, because of the song “I can’t drive 55” or, did they drive that way regardless of the song, simply because they were teenagers? I am tempted to say gangsta rap is worse, because those kids actually emulate those artists as personal hero’s… but I could be completely wrong about that. Perhaps it is, honestly, nothing more than my ignorance on the topic and white privilege that I have no true perspective. I would be glad, more than glad, to be proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/72 "2015-11-03T04:21:00Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > You claim both sides of the argument. It’s like you’re so scared of your position being called out and exposed, you instantly flip flop rather than try to defend that position. Because he thinks it’s “right” to be a Lefty but he has a tonne of instincts/feelings that are at odds with this “right” thinking. He’s had a bunch of threads like this. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/73 "2015-11-03T04:51:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Did you see the part where I asked about your opinion, the opinion of **Ambivalid** on this topic? I don’t think rap music and rappers deserve more criticism for not being better role models for the youth that listen to their music. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/74 "2015-11-03T04:57:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Because he thinks it’s “right” to be a Lefty but he has a tonne of instincts/feelings that are at odds with this “right” thinking. He’s had a bunch of threads like this. Yes, this is true. /\ Why, I wonder, however, is talking about me more important to you, than talking about the topic at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/75 "2015-11-03T04:59:43Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I don’t think rap music and rappers deserve more criticism for not being better role models for the youth that listen to their music. 1- Not being a better role model 2- Being a - bad - role model There is at least a small amount of difference between the two. ---
**Author:** ![bethewave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@bethewave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bethewave)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/76 "2015-11-03T08:22:34Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, this is true. /\ > > Why, I wonder, however, is talking about me more important to you, than talking about the topic at hand? Anyone who has attempted to decipher the topic and post about it is ignored by you. So again, you think rappers talk up violence and are given a free pass. What should be done instead? What would \*\*NOT \*\*giving them a free pass look like? Should a bunch of older TV journalists talk about how bad violent rap lyrics are, will that influence rappers to stop? Should we all send them a strongly worded letter? Or are you suggesting censorship? It’s been over two decades since Cop Killer came out. I don’t think Ice-T was given a pass on that. But any protests against the song just made it more popular, and heard by more young people. If you’re a teenager, who do you want to emulate - Marlon Brando in the Wild One, or a stuffy, boring, law-abiding old cop? If you’re a teenager, whose side seems fun and thrilling and exciting - Ice-T who is saying SO MANY bad words and riling up the olds and getting so much attention; or Dan Quayle and Tipper Gore, wagging their fingers at him? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/77 "2015-11-03T08:29:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- Not being a better role model > 2- Being a - bad - role model > > There is at least a small amount of difference between the two. Um, OK. And the relevance of this small bit of difference? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/78 "2015-11-03T08:44:38Z")
> [@bethewave](#): > > Anyone who has attempted to decipher the topic and post about it is ignored by you. Why would you say this? I’m not ignoring your comments, below /. > [@](#): > > So again, you think rappers talk up violence and are given a free pass. Yes > [@](#): > > What should be done instead? What would \*\*NOT \*\*giving them a free pass look like? Should a bunch of older TV journalists talk about how bad violent rap lyrics are, will that influence rappers to stop? Should we all send them a strongly worded letter? Or are you suggesting censorship? I do not know what should be done about it > [@](#): > > It’s been over two decades since Cop Killer came out. I don’t think Ice-T was given a pass on that. But any protests against the song just made it more popular, and heard by more young people. Yeah, not that I would censor anything but yeah, if you denounce something it will just make it more popular for a teenager, at least in most cases. > [@](#): > > If you’re a teenager, who do you want to emulate - Marlon Brando in the Wild One, or a stuffy, boring, law-abiding old cop? If you’re a teenager, whose side seems fun and thrilling and exciting - Ice-T who is saying SO MANY bad words and riling up the olds and getting so much attention; or Dan Quayle and Tipper Gore, wagging their fingers at him? Yeah, I agree, you’d want to be Marlon Brando or Ice-T. Well, I’d rather be Chuck D but I see your point… > [@](#): > > or Dan Quayle and Tipper Gore, wagging their fingers at him? I allways thought the warning label thing on records was way overblown, the controversy about it. We have PG 13 and R rated movies… why would/should music be any different? But, if they had no warning labels on music either, I wouldn’t care in that direction either. It seems trivial in both directions to me, to be honest… and it wound up having the effect you mentioned above… the warning label stuff was what the kids all wanted anyway… which, I think, was what Frank Zappa tried to warn them about. Watch him and John Denver debating the topic with congress on YouTube… really interesting. Still, I kind of think it was all overblown and trivial. > [@](#): > > Anyone who has attempted to decipher the topic and post about it is ignored by you. I’m not sure why you would take the attitude you do with me in this and other posts in this thread. Examine my statistics under my profile, if you like. Or don’t. Look at the threads I start. The point is, sometimes I make strong controversial statements. Sometimes I ask questions. Believe it or not, when I say, what do you think about ABC vs XYZ… that is what I mean, precisely, a question. Believe me, if my point is that ABC sucks… I’ll tell you, I won’t “pretend” to ask. (Well, unless I am being over the top sarcastic). So I have still not made up my mind on this topic. I still think that rappers have at least - some - negative influence on youth as being bad role models. That does not mean I want to censor anything or condemn anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/79 "2015-11-03T08:49:51Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Um, OK. And the relevance of this small bit of difference? I don’t know. Really, I am not being evasive on purpose. I guess maybe if I did know, if I did have an exact answer, I would of opened the thread with a declarative statement instead of a question… like, there would of been no question mark at the end… Do you have any thoughts about the relevance of the small amount of difference? See, that, up there /.… right there… a question mark (?). This means I am asking your opinion, not, preaching on a soapbox. (Well, I am being a bit snarky, but… you were kind of being a bit sarcastic, weren’t you?). Don’t forget… /\ (?). ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462/80 "2015-11-03T10:34:49Z")
[Relevant?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCEf557fNYg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-use-of-the-word-thug-by-rappers/736462.md?page=5)