# The Other Waldo Pepper, you're kind of a lying prick **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563 "2016-01-09T04:40:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/21 "2016-01-11T15:25:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > **BobLibDem** argued that Obama’s famous If You Like Your Plan You Can Keep It lie was in fact – well, here, I’ll quote him: _“Was your old plan compliant? If not, you couldn’t keep it. Was your old insurer going out of business? If so, you could hardly keep it, could you? Almost everybody kept their old plans. For a very limited number, they could not keep their plan. Since the statement is true for many more people than it was not, it cannot be said with a straight face to be a lie.”_ > > I disagree, since by my reckoning it’s a lie regardless of whether it’s true for many more people than not. And, as **Lobohan** puts it in the OP: _It sums up to me saying, I’m okay with a politician promising X and getting it for most except a small subset. Specifically I said I’d give it a, “meh”._ > > By contrast, I, of course say it’s a lie regardless of how small the subset, or how the subset is chosen. I’ll stand by my assessment. There was no intent to deceive. There was an implicit clause that he failed to make explicit: "If you like your health plan, _and it is compliant with the ACA and your insurer chooses to keep offering it_, you can keep it. I think it’s just common sense. If he had said “if you like Chevy Impalas, you can keep buying them” of course it is contingent on Chevy continuing to make the Impala. There are new regulations on what constitutes a valid health insurance policy, those changes were implicit in Obama’s statement. This got to be Politifact’s Lie of the Year only because Politifact wanted to prove impartiality, given that they consistently find more lies uttered by Republicans (and that would be simply because Republicans are, in general, natural-born liars). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/22 "2016-01-11T15:49:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’ll stand by my assessment. There was no intent to deceive. There was an implicit clause that he failed to make explicit: "If you like your health plan, _and it is compliant with the ACA and your insurer chooses to keep offering it_, you can keep it. I think it’s just common sense. Sure, I’d agree that _if your insurer chooses to keep offering it_ is just common sense. But figuring an implicit _and it is compliant with the ACA_ clause would make what he said meaningless; saying “if you like your plan, you can keep it, unless it’s not compliant with the ACA” is like saying “if you like your plan, you can keep it, unless you can’t.” It’s like saying “This new law won’t affect the minimum wage,” and thereby. implying “except it does”. Why would he even bother saying the opposite, if he only meant the implied part? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/23 "2016-01-11T16:08:18Z")
I agree with Waldo. Whether that’s helpful to his case, I don’t know. But I do agree that “you can keep your plan” means “And I will grandfather in your old plans.” The only reason I ever though it wasn’t a lie is the claim by some that the insurance companies exploited a loophole, and that the actual intention was to grandfather in the old plans. If that’s not the case, then I agree that Obama lied. And, no, I don’t approve of such lying, because the lie was a key part of what made the ACA acceptable. And the fact that it wasn’t true is a huge part of what created the underinsurance gap. Or, to put a personal face on it, it’s why my sister now cannot afford to go to the doctor when she’s sick–the same sister I said would not be affected by the ACA back before it passed. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/24 "2016-01-11T16:20:52Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Sure, I’d agree that _if your insurer chooses to keep offering it_ is just common sense. But figuring an implicit _and it is compliant with the ACA_ clause would make what he said meaningless; saying “if you like your plan, you can keep it, unless it’s not compliant with the ACA” is like saying “if you like your plan, you can keep it, unless you can’t.” It’s like saying “This new law won’t affect the minimum wage,” and thereby. implying “except it does”. > > Why would he even bother saying the opposite, if he only meant the implied part? I don’t know what the percentage of the pre-ACA policies were ACA-compliant. If it was less than half I’d be more inclined to treat Obama’s statement as a lie. I think he must have believed that the vast majority of us wouldn’t see a difference and keep what we had, indeed most of us felt no difference when that Act took effect, other than our insurers being forced to spend 80% of the premiums on health care. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/25 "2016-01-11T16:46:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’ll stand by my assessment. There was no intent to deceive. There was an implicit clause that he failed to make explicit: "If you like your health plan, _and it is compliant with the ACA and your insurer chooses to keep offering it_, you can keep it. I think it’s just common sense. If he had said “if you like Chevy Impalas, you can keep buying them” of course it is contingent on Chevy continuing to make the Impala. That would be true if he was not discussing a law which made it impossible or impractical for Chevy to make Impalas. ISTM that you’re conjuring up an image of a guy promising you can keep buying Impalas and then Chevy stopping to make Impalas for reasons which were unconnected to the law being promoted. But that’s not what happened here. > [@](#): > > There are new regulations on what constitutes a valid health insurance policy, those changes were implicit in Obama’s statement. The key issue was how his intended audience was expected to understand his statement. There’s a tiny bit of grey area here in that the law Obama was promoting was already known at the time to include the aspects which made it impossible for many people to keep their plans. But that only meant that people who were closely following the details and understood the nature of health insurance would realize that his statement was not accurate as stated. The vast majority of the people would take it at face value, and Obama undoubtedly knew that. So IMO he was lying. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/26 "2016-01-11T17:24:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That would be true if he was not discussing a law which made it impossible or impractical for Chevy to make Impalas. ISTM that you’re conjuring up an image of a guy promising you can keep buying Impalas and then Chevy stopping to make Impalas for reasons which were unconnected to the law being promoted. But that’s not what happened here.The key issue was how his intended audience was expected to understand his statement. > > There’s a tiny bit of grey area here in that the law Obama was promoting was already known at the time to include the aspects which made it impossible for many people to keep their plans. But that only meant that people who were closely following the details and understood the nature of health insurance would realize that his statement was not accurate as stated. The vast majority of the people would take it at face value, and Obama undoubtedly knew that. So IMO he was lying. Companies choose to stop offering products for a variety of reasons. I bet some of the health care insurers stopped offering plans just to piss on Obama. Some just decided that other ventures are more profitable. You can’t blame Obama for those any more than you can say it’s his fault if your doctor retires and stops offering care. “which made it impossible for many”. How many is many? More than one? What percent of those previously insured had to drop their plans? How many of those had junk insurance and wound up getting a better plan for less? How many junk insurers provided coverage only for a black eye incurred in the course of a stampede of wild elephants in his house between 3:55 and 4:00 pm on the Fourth of July during a hailstorm? (oh, and one baby zebra). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/27 "2016-01-11T20:27:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I like to read pit threads like this without following the link to the underlying thread first (when the OP is bright enough to provide one) just to see if I can figure out what the argument is from the pit thread posts. > > Yeah, no fucking way. **Yog** thinks Waldo is accusing him/her of believe B, but in realty, Waldo is accusing Yog of NOT believing A. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/28 "2016-01-11T20:58:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Companies choose to stop offering products for a variety of reasons. I bet some of the health care insurers stopped offering plans just to piss on Obama. Some just decided that other ventures are more profitable. You can’t blame Obama for those any more than you can say it’s his fault if your doctor retires and stops offering care. > > “which made it impossible for many”. How many is many? More than one? What percent of those previously insured had to drop their plans? How many of those had junk insurance and wound up getting a better plan for less? How many junk insurers provided coverage only for a black eye incurred in the course of a stampede of wild elephants in his house between 3:55 and 4:00 pm on the Fourth of July during a hailstorm? (oh, and one baby zebra). These are new claims, which go beyond the scope of this discussion. I don’t agree with this, but am not inclined to hash it out here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/29 "2016-01-11T20:59:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Yog** thinks Waldo is accusing him/her of believe B, but in realty, Waldo is accusing Yog of NOT believing A. How dare I! ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/30 "2016-01-11T21:13:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I like to read pit threads like this without following the link to the underlying thread first (when the OP is bright enough to provide one) just to see if I can figure out what the argument is from the pit thread posts. > > Yeah, no fucking way. I think it’s about spoilers for the TV shows from the book. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/31 "2016-01-11T21:17:10Z")
Look, we all go way back and, uh, I owe you from the thing with the guy in the place. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/32 "2016-01-12T02:30:34Z")
Why did you steal my username? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/33 "2016-01-12T04:02:07Z")
Let me explain something to you: I am not Mister Lebowski; _you’re_ Mister Lebowski. I’m – The Dude. So that’s what you call me. You know, that, or, uh, His Dudeness, or, uh, Duder, or El Duderino, if you’re not into the whole ‘brevity’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/34 "2016-01-12T04:18:25Z")
All kidding aside, though: if me going by TOWP is causing you any consternation, you were here first and I guess I’d be glad to change my handle; just say the word. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/35 "2016-01-12T05:09:40Z")
Any consternation on my part would be the definition of a first world problem. I’d be lying if I said that it didn’t bother me a little bit at first, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s no big thing. Plus, I think that you’re a good contributor here, which is nice. I’m curious, mostly - is WP your favorite movie? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563/36 "2016-01-12T12:07:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > Any consternation on my part would be the definition of a first world problem. I’d be lying if I said that it didn’t bother me a little bit at first, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s no big thing. Plus, I think that you’re a good contributor here, which is nice. I’m curious, mostly - is WP your favorite movie? No, but I’d just seen it for the first time right before picking a name, and enjoyed it enough that it was on my mind, even though even then it wasn’t even my favorite _Redford_ movie, since BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID exists. (For the record: FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.) Still, I’d meant what I’d said: if you find yourself wincing at seeing something like your name in a BBQ Pit thread title in the future, I remain amenable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-other-waldo-pepper-youre-kind-of-a-lying-prick/742563.md?page=1)