# The Outsiders: Did Gangs Ever Really Do This? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 13, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482 "2019-06-13T16:28:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/1 "2019-06-13T16:28:15Z")
I just finished listening to an audiobook of _The Outsiders_, a book I never got around to reading, but is on a lot of must read lists. I guess the big deal about this book is that it was written by a sixteen-year-old girl, and not everything in it is hunky-dory. I agree the writing shows a great deal of talent, but even in 1967, I think the portrayal of gang life in the book is more what an intelligent sixteen-year-old girl who loves \*West Side Story \* imagines gang life to be like. Her gangbangers are way too touchy-feely, putting their arms around each other, and comforting each other when they cry, which happens a lot in this book. I just don’t see Ponyboy using Johnnycake’s legs for a pillow as a thing a tough kid would do. Also, and this bugged me about _West Side Story_ too, the rival gangs set a time for a rumble, and decide ahead of time not to use weapons. But I don’t know. Was it ever a thing, even in the old days, for a gang to set appointments for gang fights? Did the gangs ever meet and agree on the rules beforehand? I’m from Chicago. I know gangs have met under truce to try and stop a war between themselves. But I really doubt they made plans ahead of time for structured violence. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/2 "2019-06-13T17:07:09Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Her gangbangers are way too touchy-feely, putting their arms around each other, and comforting each other when they cry, which happens a lot in this book. I just don’t see Ponyboy using Johnnycake’s legs for a pillow as a thing a tough kid would do. To be fair, the greasers are more of an extended family than a typical gang. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/3 "2019-06-13T17:07:11Z")
What I always found interesting about the characters in The Outsiders was that, taking place in Oklahoma, they were also sort of rodeo kids. The book talks about how several of them had had horses and competed in the rodeo. Hard for me, as a New Yorker, to imagine a street gang infused with a country / western ethos. I’ve no idea how authentic that may be, but the book is good enough to justify my suspension of disbelief. The Coppola movie mostly ignores this aspect, except for the fleeting appearance of Tom Waits as Matt Dillon’s friend at a honky tonk. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/4 "2019-06-13T17:08:45Z")
And this is the first I’ve ever heard that S. E. Hinton was a young girl. I suppose I had just assumed a 30something man. Which is probably why she went by her initials to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/5 "2019-06-13T17:17:24Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > I just finished listening to an audiobook of _The Outsiders_, a book I never got around to reading, but is on a lot of must read lists. Did Tom Reynolds and Tim Daniels recommendation of the book influence your choice? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/6 "2019-06-13T17:25:10Z")
I agree the touchy-feely aspects are probably a fantasy but there may be a GRAIN of truth in the “structured fighting”. I think this was before gangs turned into basically extensions of organized crime that focus on making money. At that time certain kids (mostly working class) joined gangs purely for social status, and I also recall 80s schoolyard culture being extremely respectful of certain “codes”. My entire school instantly heard all about one dirtbag kid who “brought his brothers to a one on one fight” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/7 "2019-06-13T17:28:22Z")
[S. E. says she grew up in a greaser neighborhood and one of her greaser friends had been beaten up on the way home from a movie.](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/movies/MoviesFeatures/an-outsider-out-of-the-shadows.html) ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/8 "2019-06-13T17:32:00Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Did Tom Reynolds and Tim Daniels recommendation of the book influence your choice? Don’t know those two. I decided because _The Outsiders_ was on a Youtube list called “15 Books to Read Before You Die”. I remembered the book from my grade school’s _Weekly Reader_, which was always pushing that book as edgy and about contemporary problems. Of course, they didn’t use the word ‘contemporary’. Another title they were always recommending was _Lisa, Bright and Dark_. I read _Lisa, Bright and Dark_ some years ago, and found it insufferably dull. Oddly enough, both books mention how dreamy Paul Newman is. I suppose some found him so, back in the day. I never did. Between Robert Redford and Paul Newman, I would have chosen Redford. Too bad, Redford looks like a rawhide chew now. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/9 "2019-06-13T18:06:56Z")
The Outsiders is based on two real groups that were at S. E. Hinton’s high school at the time she went there. She has said part of her reason for writing the book is that she felt the portrayals of teenagers in the books she was reading herself back then were not realistic to her own experience. Back when I read her books, I thought it odd that so many of the characters in them were orphans or had parents who weren’t around much. Then I found out that [Hinton herself had terrible parents, and her father died just prior to her writing The Outsiders](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/movies/MoviesFeatures/an-outsider-out-of-the-shadows.html) [same link as **Skywatcher’s**]. I think that explains a lot about the characters in the books. The kids don’t have adults to rely on or get affection from, so they depend on each other. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/10 "2019-06-13T18:30:48Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Between Robert Redford and Paul Newman, I would have chosen Redford. Too bad, Redford looks like a rawhide chew now. I bet Paul Newman looks worse. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/11 "2019-06-13T18:45:06Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Don’t know those two. I decided because _The Outsiders_ was on a Youtube list called “15 Books to Read Before You Die”. Ahhh, cool. Tim and Tom host a podcast (The Complete Guide To Everything) and have a second podcast for patreon supporters called Books: The Podcast. They are reading books they should have read in school. They’ve done Lord of the Flies, The Outsiders, And Then There Were None, Brave New World, and The Great Gatsby. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-outsiders-did-gangs-ever-really-do-this/835482/12 "2019-06-13T19:40:32Z")
I read the book in school (I think junior high) and I remember thinking the same thing as the OP, that the main characters (particularly the main character and his brothers) were very touch-feely. (BTW, I remember that the kids in class enjoyed this book much more than many of the classics we had to read.)