# The Papacy and U.S. Citizenship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 17, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337 "2002-12-17T15:01:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/1 "2002-12-17T15:01:58Z")
Actually a fairly simply question: If an American (by which I mean a U.S. Citizen) cardinal is elected pope by his fellow cardinals, can he lose his U.S. citizenship by becoming the monarch of a recognized foreign country? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/2 "2002-12-17T15:10:09Z")
Why would he? Where does it say a US citizen cannot be the head of another state? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/3 "2002-12-17T15:18:22Z")
BTW, wasn’t a recent president of the Czech Republic a US citizen? In any case, I do not think the Pope is considered the head of a country as much as the head of a religion. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/4 "2002-12-17T15:24:17Z")
I’m not entirely certain the Pope has any real influence on the day-to-day administration of Vatican City. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/5 "2002-12-17T15:25:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*In any case, I do not think the Pope is considered the head of a country as much as the head of a religion. \*\* Nope. Vatican City is an independent country and is ruled by the elected Pope. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![mrcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@mrcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrcrow)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/6 "2002-12-17T15:28:24Z")
does the vatican have ‘citizens’ other than the administrators of itself.? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/7 "2002-12-17T15:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrcrow \* > \*\*does the vatican have ‘citizens’ other than the administrators of itself.? \*\* The Vatican (from the CIA World Factbook) has a population of 900, but I think pretty much the entire population works for the Vatican (or when applicable, is a family member of one of the employees of the Vatican). ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/8 "2002-12-17T15:44:37Z")
Well, maybe. According to 8 USC §1481 (4), - (a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality– (4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or \* Although I doubt the US would want to press the issue should one of our Cardinals get the nod. There’s also a question of intent – the Holy Father would have to intend to lose his American citizenship by accepting the civil service job in the Vatican. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/9 "2002-12-17T16:03:53Z")
I suppose technically someone could raise the question. Though every discussion we have seen here on loss of citizenship, dual citizenship, parallel citizenship, whatever, seems to point that there is no such thing as “automatic” de-patriation of a US citizen. As Frankd6 says, your actions have to be found indicative of an intention to ditch the condition of “American” Does the Pope swear loyalty to Vatican City? It may well be that the legal reality of V-city is such that the soverign NEED NOT be a “citizen-of-Vatican-City” – the law says that you must not take an oath to another state, but it’s been settled that a mere oath to carry out the duties of an office is not automatically disqualifying. OTOH, the holding of head-of-stateship or some high “policymaking” position is recognized as more than mere employment. Generally the US does not “recognize” dual citizenship but sort of looks the other way as long as there is no conflict. Any legal or constitutional considerations about this scenario would slam hard into the very practical consideration of tens of millions of American Catholic registered voters. You could expect the State Department to look the other way, and were third parties to seek to force the issue you could expect Congress to pass an Act making an exception with lightning speed. jrd ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/10 "2002-12-17T16:34:30Z")
I very much doubt there is _anyone_ who has vatican citizenship as their primary citizenship. They may have Vatican passports for business but I bet, even the Pope, when he travels abroad and goes through Immigration control, presents his Polish Passport. Having a Vatican passport is probably like having a UN passport: a business thing. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/11 "2002-12-17T17:01:59Z")
The Constitution prohibits American citizens from “swearing allegiance to a foreign prince” – but AFAIK it does not prohibit them from **becoming** one. The question is interesting for quite another reason – at least two of the pretenders to Eastern European thrones are American citizens; what would happen if those countries decided to reinstitute a constitutional monarchy? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/12 "2002-12-17T17:11:57Z")
Milan Panic, an American citizen, served for a year or so as the president of Yugoslavia (Serbia). I believe Congress passed a resolution allowing him to serve in that capacity while retaining his American citizenship. If an American became Pope, I’m sure that Congress or the State Department would ask for something similar. And I don’t think the Pope goes through passport control when he visits another country. There have been threads on this before, but heads of state don’t do such things. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/13 "2002-12-17T17:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BobT \* > \*\*And I don’t think the Pope goes through passport control when he visits another country. There have been threads on this before, but heads of state don’t do such things. \*\* I know. Life ain’t fair. Either we are equal or we are not equal. I guess we aren’t equal. I want to be the Pope when I grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/14 "2002-12-17T17:27:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, maybe. According to 8 USC §1481 (4), > > (a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality– > (4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or How well-enforced is this? I have met American citizens who have served in the Israeli army. Maybe that’s allowed, since the US and Israel are allies? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7feea3/32.png) [@PatrickM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickM)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/15 "2002-12-17T17:40:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*I know. Life ain’t fair. Either we are equal or we are not equal. I guess we aren’t equal. I want to be the Pope when I grow up. \*\* Sailor, we’ll need to see how you look in a pointy hat first. 🙂 (Yeah, I know the pointy hat is called a miter, but “pointy hat” is funnier.) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/16 "2002-12-17T18:02:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*BTW, wasn’t a recent president of the Czech Republic a US citizen? In any case, I do not think the Pope is considered the head of a country as much as the head of a religion. \*\* That would be either Jan Stasky or Vaclav Havel, neither US citizens AFAIK. Must be the Serbian guy you’re thinking of. Interestingly, though, Madaleine Albright is thinking of running for Czech President. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/17 "2002-12-17T19:57:44Z")
It was definitely Milan Panic. This hard to read Voice of America script [http://www.hri.org/news/usa/voa/97-01-10.voa.html](http://www.hri.org/news/usa/voa/97-01-10.voa.html) says that it was actually the State Department that allowed Panic to take over that job. He has since returned to the US and resumed his job, which apparently involves being really, really rich. This was the thread on heads of state and passports. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=63097&highlight=head+state+passports](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=63097&highlight=head+state+passports) There was no definitive solution. But I would assume that most of the formalities are handled behind the scenes. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/18 "2002-12-17T20:01:48Z")
Now that I think more on the matter, wasn’t Meir Kahane stripped of his U.S. citizenship when he became a member of the Kenesset? I would imagine that if becoming a legislator in another country would get you booted from U.S. citizenship that actually becoming the ruler of another country would do that as well. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/19 "2002-12-17T20:26:54Z")
I think you could lose your citizenship unless the State Department grants you a waiver. I don’t think the State Department was going to bend the rules for Kahane, but a Pope would likely get a break. Although I could imagine that Jack Chick would get quite upset. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/20 "2002-12-17T20:55:09Z")
I doubt a Pope would be very worried about losing his US citizenship…It’s not like he’s at some risk of losing his new job and having to apply for another one… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337.md?page=2)