# The Papacy and U.S. Citizenship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 17, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337 "2002-12-17T15:01:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/21 "2002-12-17T20:56:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*I know. Life ain’t fair. Either we are equal or we are not equal. I guess we aren’t equal. I want to be the Pope when I grow up. \*\* That’s because you know you would get free airline tickets to travel everywhere you want… ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/22 "2002-12-17T21:03:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyla \* > \*\*How well-enforced is this? I have met American citizens who have served in the Israeli army. Maybe that’s allowed, since the US and Israel are allies? \*\* For quite a long time, Israel was the _only_ country with whom the U.S. would recognize a dual citizenship. Whether or not you were an “ally” made no difference. (Canadians and Brits coulnd’t for example.) I _think_ (I am _not sure_) that one of the reasons is because anyone belonging to the Jewish faith is a citizen of Isreal. U.S. immigration laws seem to change every few decades. For a long time I was NOT able to have dual citizenship (Canada/U.S.), then things changed some time around the late '80s. At that time, my mother, a U.S. citizen who is a landed immigrant in Canada, was also told by the U.S. consular (who coincidentally was from her hometown in the U.S.) that she was able to become naturalized as a Canadian without losing her American citizenship. Again that was somewhere around the late 1908s, perhaps early '90s. Whether or not this has changed since then, I’ve no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/23 "2002-12-17T21:19:53Z")
Sorry, it was late 19 **80** s or early 1990s that we visted the U.S. consul. Neither my mom, nor I were alive in 1908. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/24 "2002-12-17T21:25:32Z")
For general US citizenship stuff and dual citizenship see [http://www.richw.org/dualcit/](http://www.richw.org/dualcit/) FWIW, the USA does not recognize dual citizenship. They acknowledge that Americans can possess dual citizenship, the government frowns upon it, but at the end of the day, dual citizenship is a Constitutional right. I can return from overseas, go through US Customs/Immigration, show my US Passport and that’s that. If the Customs Officer decides to search my belongings and papers and finds my other passport, they cannot say/do anything about it because they lack jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/25 "2002-12-17T21:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pravnik \* > \*\*That would be either Jan Stasky or Vaclav Havel, neither US citizens AFAIK. Must be the Serbian guy you’re thinking of. \*\* Actually, I’ll bet **sailor** is thinking of [Valdas Adamkus, President of Lithuania](http://www.president.lt/en/biography.phtml), formally with the US EPA. He came to the US after WWII, was a civil servant with the EPA for years, retired, ran for President and won. [He renounced his US citizenship.](http://www.europeanforum.bot-consult.se/cup/lithuania/develop.htm) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/26 "2002-12-17T22:26:21Z")
\>\> FWIW, the USA does not recognize dual citizenship. Depends how you define “recognize”. The US has treaties with China and other countries in which the USA recognizes there are people with dual citizenship and how they shall be treated. I would say that is a recognition. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/27 "2002-12-17T22:31:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eats\_Crayons \* > **For quite a long time, Israel was the _only_ country with whom the U.S. would recognize a dual citizenship. Whether or not you were an “ally” made no difference. (Canadians and Brits coulnd’t for example.) I _think_ (I am _not sure_) that one of the reasons is because anyone belonging to the Jewish faith is a citizen of Isreal.** I have to say that’s probably not the case. Again, define “recognize”. There are thousands upon thousands of people from many countries who have had dual citizenship for a long time and I know a few. The USA AFAIK does not require those becoming citizens to renounce any other citizenship they may have and I donot think it ever has. I’d need some proof that it did. That’s a pretty good “recognition” in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/28 "2002-12-17T23:29:41Z")
Some links on dual citizenship, nationality, and loss of U.S. citizenship, from the horse’s mouth (the State Department): [http://www.travel.state.gov/loss.html](http://www.travel.state.gov/loss.html) [http://www.travel.state.gov/foreign\_public\_office.html](http://www.travel.state.gov/foreign_public_office.html) [http://www.travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html](http://www.travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html) The case law has certainly been all over the place on these issues over the past hundred years…so it’s really anybody’s guess. As a practical matter, many, many people are dual nationals without even realizing it (my dad and aunt are dual U.S./Canadian nationals; grandma was born in Canada, Dad and aunt were born in the U.S., so they’re USCs by birth, andCanadian by birth to a Canadian mother). It never occurred to them that this might be the case until I brought it up. Many, many other people are dual nationals by birth and naturalization; my college roomie is Salvadoran by birth, American by naturlalization, and is now living with her English husband int eh U.K. as a permanent resident, and will probably end up with a third citizenship one of these days. Her kids, ages 2 years and 6 months, are eligible for three passports at birth: Salvadoran, U.S., and U.K. Messy, no? As a practical matter, the U.S. has no way of knowing about their other nationalities unless there is a fuss made about it. My dual/triple citizen friends all use whichever passport is most convenient at the moment. When my roomie applied for a fiancee visa to the U.K. in San Salvador, they sure treated her differently when she showed them the U.S. passport! Before that, they pretty much treated her like a gold-digger. Ah, but I digress. As for an American Pope, he’d be a bit more conspicuous. I bet the State Department would find some way to let him have both nationalities. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/29 "2002-12-18T00:04:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*\>\> FWIW, the USA does not recognize dual citizenship. > > Depends how you define “recognize”. The US has treaties with China and other countries in which the USA recognizes there are people with dual citizenship and how they shall be treated. I would say that is a recognition. \*\* Let me clarify … > [@](#): > > **I was recently told by a US customs official that the US doesn’t “recognize” dual citizenship. What gives?** > > It depends on exactly what is meant by “recognizing” dual citizenship. If the official meant to say that dual US/other citizenship violates US law, he was, simply put, wrong. If he meant that foreign citizenship makes no difference under US law if one is also a US citizen, he was right. > > US citizenship law is primarily concerned with whether or not a given person holds US citizenship. If a person is a US citizen and is currently within the jurisdiction of the US, any other citizenship(s) he or she may hold are really not relevant in US law. > > A “dual citizen” has no special status in the US by virtue of holding citizenship in some other country too. In particular, if you are a dual citizen and get into some kind of legal trouble while in the US, you should not expect the US to acknowledge any efforts by consular officials of your other country of citizenship to intervene in your behalf. > > Also, when a “dual citizen” enters the US, he/she is expected to identify himself to US immigration and customs officials as a US citizen (not as a citizen of some other country) – and in cases where a passport is required to enter the US, a dual US/other citizen is expected to enter on a US passport, just like any other US citizen. > > I’ve heard of recent cases where dual US/other citizens briefly got into sticky situations while entering the US, when they attempted to identify themselves either as “dual” citizens or as citizens of another country. In former times (before the latest round of State Department policy reforms), attempting to enter the US on a foreign passport could even be used as “evidence” of intent to relinquish US citizenship. Although this apparently isn’t a danger any more, the best thing to do is probably to make life simple and assert only your US citizenship rights when entering the US. > > Remember that US immigration officers are primarily interested in determining whether a person wishing to enter the US should be let in. If you hold US citizenship, then you have a legal right to enter, remain in, and work in the US. Holding some other citizenship as well as US citizenship is completely irrelevant in this case, and if you make an issue of holding a second citizenship, you’re just making it more likely that US officials will think something is amiss. Source: [http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#recog](http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#recog) **Eva Luna** , I wouldn’t hold what the State Department says to be completely accurate. They have a vested interest in the issue. In one example, my sister (dual citz with the UK) wanted to renew her US Passport. The embassy sent her a convoluted multi-page form to complete. The form was written in such a way as to make you give up your US citizenship if she completed it according to the directions. She made big red X’s on every page, refused to complete it and sign it. Her cover letter with her renewal application contained a blunt direct statement that she had no intention of ever giving up her US citizenship, please renew my US Passport, thankyouverymuch. She got it renewed with no objection. I got the same form when I renewed my US Passport while living in Australia. I did the same thing with the form, including my cover letter. I got it renewed with no objection. It is my understanding the State Department got their hands slapped playing these games with US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/30 "2002-12-18T01:19:59Z")
Right – methinks the perception that the USA gave Israeli “dual citizenship” a unique, privileged position was a combination of (a) the statistical artifact of a large number of Americans becoming Israeli citizens AND (b) the 1967 _Afroyim v. Rusk_ court case, which was a key case to establish you cannot summarily depatriate an American, and involved precisely a US-Israeli “dual” citizen (I can easily see how that could get conflated into “the US is privileging the Israelis”). ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337/31 "2002-12-18T01:22:36Z")
A national is not the same as a citizen. For instance people in American Samoa are NATIONALS but NOT citizens. People in Puerto Rico ARE citizens. The difference is the courts have ruled the BASIC parts but not ALL of the constitution applies to them [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papacy-and-u-s-citizenship/143337.md?page=1)