# The papal ministry and Christmas question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418 "2014-11-23T18:19:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/21 "2014-11-24T15:29:07Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s pretty much what I always thought as well- Christmas and Easter were put when they are to coincide with existing pagan traditions, and there was/is a lot of syncretism involved. Easter is linked to the date of Passover (and there is absolutely no way to unlink it without disregarding Scripture), which is why it’s a moveable feast. Unless you want to call Judaism a “pagan tradition,” the date of Easter was not chosen to coincide with a pagan tradition. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/22 "2014-11-24T16:16:06Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s pretty much what I always thought as well- Christmas and Easter were put when they are to coincide with existing pagan traditions, and there was/is a lot of syncretism involved. Mexico’s Day of the Dead is the same sort of thing- a blending of pre-Columbian indigenous religion with Catholic All Saints Day/All Souls Day… And All Saints Day was allegedly a Christianization of the Celtic Samhain harvest festival. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/23 "2014-11-24T16:17:15Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > A Nativity scene beside a gaudily decorated (now dead, thanks to the host) tree and next to a fireplace with stockings kind of sums it up… The Nativity scene is attributed to Francis Assisi; if that’s true, it would put it as part of the Christmas celebrations much later than the setting of the date. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/24 "2014-11-25T00:54:17Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Easter is linked to the date of Passover (and there is absolutely no way to unlink it without disregarding Scripture), which is why it’s a moveable feast. Unless you want to call Judaism a “pagan tradition,” the date of Easter was not chosen to coincide with a pagan tradition. Not to coincide, no. However… From [TimeAndDate.Com](http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/common/easter-sunday) > [@](#): > > However, the roots of the Easter holiday’s traditions and activities can be traced back to pagan celebrations. The name Easter is believed to come from Eostara, the goddess of rebirth. In early times the Feast of Eostara celebrated earth’s resurrection and rebirth… . . > > The Easter date depends on the approximation of the March equinox. In 325CE the Council of Nicaea decided that the Easter date would be the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the March equinox. Easter is therefore delayed one week if the full moon is on Sunday, which lessens the likelihood of it falling on the same day as the Jewish Passover. . . > > Symbols > Easter eggs and the Easter Bunny are both fertility symbols, holdovers from the feast of Eostara. Other symbols include the pagan joy in the rising sun of spring and. . .pagan bonfires… So it is very tightly linked. After all, the planet was doing its thing relative to the moon and local star long before those tribes near the Red Sea thought of the name Elohim… –G! [Relevant Onion article](http://www.theonion.com/articles/sumerians-look-on-in-confusion-as-god-creates-worl,2879/) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/25 "2014-11-25T01:18:21Z")
**Czarcasm** is 100% right about what the Pope can do. There’s nothing set in stone about what holy days are celebrated and when. That said, I think it would be more likely that there’s just be a new holy day, and only the sacred stuff would be moved to it. And there’d still be a Christmas on December 25 that celebrated Jesus. We’ve been pretty sure it’s the wrong day for a long time. Why would knowing for sure change that? And, of course, other denominations are free to react differently. The one that I think would be interesting would be whether those that denounce Christmas as a pagan holiday would celebrate the new holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/26 "2014-11-25T04:22:14Z")
For what it’s worth, John Adams had this to say about how Americans should celebrate the day we declared independence from Great Britain: “The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever more.” 238 years later, we still celebrate independence on the fourth, even though that’s off by two days. _Vox populi, vox Dei._ ---
**Author:** ![Marion\_Wormer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Marion\_Wormer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marion_Wormer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/27 "2014-11-25T21:19:37Z")
As a practicing Catholic, I feel I ought to throw in a couple of points. 1. Christmas is a liturgical day of obligation. It’s not the actual birthday of Christ. By liturgical it means that Christmas, and a whole bunch of other days of obligation are spread through out the year in order to represent the ‘big moments’ of Christ’s ministry. These ‘big moments’ are set up so that attendees get the basics of Christian belief throughout the year. There’s a real structure in the distribution of the days, it’s not arbitrary. 2. This liturgy is set up because until the last century, most people who came to mass were illiterate. 3. Some dates are determined based on bureaucratic decisions that date back a while (Christmas) others are determined based on numerical references (an event 8 days after Christmas–Feast of the Circumcision, and before and after Easter for example). 4. Some days just seem to get ‘stuck in’ where there’s a space. This explains why the Solemnity of Mary is Jan 1 in some countries but not all countries. So in answer to the OP. If there was a time machine and the Pope could determine the actual birthday of Christ, it would have no effect on the liturgical year. The Catholic Church is a bureaucracy. They’d think about it and argue. I mean after a couple of hundred years of study the Church might migrate around to the actual date, but it would just be easier to add in another actual day of obligation and be done with it so as not to disrupt the liturgical year. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/28 "2014-11-25T21:28:23Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Not to coincide, no. However… > From [TimeAndDate.Com](http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/common/easter-sunday) > > So it is very tightly linked. > After all, the planet was doing its thing relative to the moon and local star long before those tribes near the Red Sea thought of the name Elohim… > > –G! > [Relevant Onion article](http://www.theonion.com/articles/sumerians-look-on-in-confusion-as-god-creates-worl,2879/) The term ‘Easter’ for the holiday is, of course, only used in English. Just about every other language refers to it as Pascha or a derivative from Pascha (which is a Greek and Latin term) - which means Passover. English wasn’t really around as a language at the time of Nicea, though Greek and Latin were. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/29 "2014-11-25T23:03:51Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > The term ‘Easter’ for the holiday is, of course, only used in English. Just about every other language refers to it as Pascha or a derivative from Pascha (which is a Greek and Latin term) - which means Passover. English wasn’t really around as a language at the time of Nicea, though Greek and Latin were. Right. In Spanish, it’s “Pascua”. And the Greek term itself is from the Hebrew “pesach”, which is simply Passover itself. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/30 "2014-11-25T23:35:30Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > The term ‘Easter’ for the holiday is, of course, only used in English. Just about every other language refers to it as Pascha or a derivative from Pascha (which is a Greek and Latin term) - which means Passover. English wasn’t really around as a language at the time of Nicea, though Greek and Latin were. Just checked the almighty and ineffably divine Google - German for **Easter** seems to be **Ostern** , which IMHO seems closer to Easter than to Pascha. In Esperanto (yes, I know that is a more or less constructed language), Easter is Easter. It’s also Easter in Afrikaans. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/31 "2014-11-26T04:49:59Z")
> [@Marion\_Wormer](#): > > So in answer to the OP. If there was a time machine and the Pope could determine the actual birthday of Christ, it would have no effect on the liturgical year. The Catholic Church is a bureaucracy. They’d think about it and argue. I mean after a couple of hundred years of study the Church might migrate around to the actual date, but it would just be easier to add in another actual day of obligation and be done with it so as not to disrupt the liturgical year. Ah, but would the Annunciation have to move from March 25? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/32 "2014-11-26T06:15:10Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Right. In Spanish, it’s “Pascua”. Not quite, its full name is _Pascua de Resurrección_ although it is generally understood that if you just say _Pascua_ that’s the one you mean. Us Catholics and those Christians who haven’t chopped up the calendar have three _Pascuas_: _la Pascua de la Natividad, la de Resurrección y la de Pentecostés_ (Christmas, Easter and Pentecostes); those places where the monday after Easter Sunday, Boxing Day and the day after Pentecostes are public holidays are said to celebrate _segundas Pascuas_ (a second day for every _Pascua_). And the jews have _la Pascua Judía_ (Pesach), which is the one that _Semana Santa_’s placement is related to. _Pascua_ also means “big holiday, big celebration” in other contexts: saying that someone was _hecho unas Pascuas_ means he was bouncing out of his hide with happiness. (Boy, that was a lot of italics) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/33 "2014-11-26T22:36:32Z")
This is [a good account](http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html)of why December 25 became Christmas. You may note it had nothing whatever to do with the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418/34 "2014-11-27T14:27:28Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > This is [a good account](http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html)of why December 25 became Christmas. > > You may note it had nothing whatever to do with the Bible. Here’s another good account that DOES have to do with the Bible. It seems there has been a long-standing (mid-200’s AD) tradition for Dec. 25 that has been supported with Biblical & theological arguments, and that tradition has been pretty much forgotten as Christians just took it for granted that Christmas was created by the Catholic Church to co-opt the pagan winter festivals, an argument rooted in Protestant anti-Catholic & freethinker anti-Christian sentiments. [http://www.ancient-future.net/christmasdate.html](http://www.ancient-future.net/christmasdate.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-papal-ministry-and-christmas-question/705418.md?page=1)