# The Paradox of ancient, crumbling abandoned cities in stories set in the ancient world **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 24, 2025, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029 "2025-03-24T13:28:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/41 "2025-03-25T02:12:21Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Possibly you are thinking of to tomb of Alexander the great. Which was old (2-3 centuries old) but not “ancient” in Caesar and Augustus’ day. Specifically, when he was in his 30s, Caesar visited Alexander’s tomb and bemoaned how little he had accomplished compared to the man who conquered the known world by his age. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/42 "2025-03-25T10:07:37Z")
Babylonian king Nabonidas (around 550 BCE) was one of a number who explored and excavated remains of Babylonian and Akkadian temples (say a millenium or two earlier) to understand them, both as a sign of piety when they had them cleared and rebuilt, or to create a claim for continuity and legitimacy or just to have a stickybeak and see what was there. That greatest of kings - Gilgamesh - encountered Ut-Napishtim who was equivalent to the biblical Noah. That story demands that a pre-Flood civilisation existed that got trashed, although G-mesh was too busy roaring around wrestling with beastly friend Enkidu and rooting temple maidens to do any proper archaeological investigation. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/43 "2025-03-25T12:01:36Z")
My point in the OP was that there are written works of fantasy set a very long time ago, and the paradox is that they have encountered ruins much, much older than the period they are set in. It’s not just about people encountering ruins, it’s the point of modern authors writing stories set in an ancient time that posits an even older civilization. They generally interact with those ruins in some way - re-awakening vestiges, or tripping booby traps, or the like. Herodotus wondering about old remains is sort of close to that, although Nabonidas excavating the ruins and trying to use them for his own purposes is closer. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/44 "2025-03-25T12:07:01Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > But the book itself is already ancient. Nowhere near as ancient as dynastic preliterate and literate Chinese society. The Bronze Age Chinese cultures all predate Taoism by a significant span., and China was well into its equivalent of an Iron Age before the Daodejing was _traditionally_ penned (never mind the even later date modern scolarship puts on it). China had seen the rise and disappearance of several cultures by then. > [@Johanna](#): > > That’s why I took it to mean prehistoric, as far back as the Neolithic China had been post-Neolithic for millennia before its historic period started. > [@Johanna](#): > > Scholars think the _Tao Te Ching_ expresses ideas that survived from shamanist tradition. _Some_ scholars think that. Others think it draws much more on the ancestor cults and divination practices of the Shang and other organized dynastic religions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/45 "2025-03-25T12:12:54Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > My point in the OP was that there are written works of fantasy set a very long time ago, and the paradox is that they have encountered ruins much, much older than the period they are set in. Unless your story is about the fantasy equivalent of the people who built Gobekli Tepe - (and I don’t think I’ve ever read a story set in that sort of era, although it seems like it could be great with hunter gatherers and early farmers coming into conflict) - then it it’s hardly a paradox, it’s how things really were in our own history. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/46 "2025-03-25T12:21:01Z")
Elaborate on “extant”. It kind of hinges on that. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/47 "2025-03-25T12:30:50Z")
I like the story of the Hogboy, a tale that may date back to Viking era Orkney. The chambered tomb of Maes Howe was already old when the Vikings came to live on those islands; they explored the tomb, and left runic graffiti inside. The Vikings had no idea who built these structures and seem to have formed their own myths about them. The tale of the Hogboy, Hugboy or Hogboon is an old one, and the name comes from the Old Norse _haugbui_, meaning mound dweller. > [@](#): > > The spirit protected the family on whose land its mound stood. In return for good fortune the family had to share its produce with the hogboon. Milk or ale was poured over the mound, and butter and ground barley or bannocks were given as an offering. > Should the family neglect this duty, the hogboon would make their lives a misery. Hogboons could be found haunting many of the Neolithic mounds on the islands. This fits the OPs observation, I think; people long ago (the Vikings) who have stories associated with ruins dating back to a much earlier time (the Orkney Neolithic era). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/48 "2025-03-25T13:02:37Z")
Turtles on top of turtles. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/49 "2025-03-25T13:12:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Nowhere near as ancient as dynastic preliterate and literate Chinese society. The Bronze Age Chinese cultures all predate Taoism by a significant span., and China was well into its equivalent of an Iron Age before the Daodejing was _traditionally_ penned (never mind the even later date modern scolarship puts on it). China had seen the rise and disappearance of several cultures by then. That sounds impressive, but “China” is just a region of the world, not a continuous political entity. You can say basically the same thing about “the Middle East”, except that the cultures there are even _more_ ancient. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/50 "2025-03-25T13:16:01Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > My point in the OP was that there are written works of fantasy set a very long time ago, and the paradox is that they have encountered ruins much, much older than the period they are set in. It’s not just about people encountering ruins, it’s the point of modern authors writing stories set in an ancient time that posits an even older civilization. Why is that a paradox? Every story is set in the present - its own present. If we have ancient ruins today, why shouldn’t people in the past have them, or people in the future for that matter? Ancient ruins are an ordinary fact of life, like sunshine or the weather. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/51 "2025-03-25T14:00:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > but “China” is just a region of the world, not a continuous political entity. See my subsequent post about “extant” > [@Alessan](#): > > the cultures there are even _more_ ancient. No-one said anything different. The point was about a Chinese cultural phenomenon, so only Chinese pre/history signified. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/52 "2025-03-25T14:25:30Z")
Fair enough. Now that I think of it, I think we probably have _fewer_ ancient ruins now than we did in the past. Human population levels have exploded in recent centuries, forcing people to resettle areas that had long been abandoned. While in the past, ruins might remain untouched for centuries, now they’re all valuable real estate to be demolished. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/53 "2025-03-25T14:58:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > While in the past, ruins might remain untouched for centuries Except pre-modern people had zero qualms about re-using all that lovely labour-intensive pre-cut masonry just lying around. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/54 "2025-03-25T15:08:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > While in the past, ruins might remain untouched for centuries, now they’re all valuable real estate to be demolished. You’re forgetting two factors. First, while there’s plenty of space, cities tend to be built where they are for reasons, and most of those reasons still apply when you’re coming back to an area after abandoning it for one reason or another. So new cities are often built right on top of old ones, even when there is plenty of room elsewhere. And second, it’s much easier to get stone blocks from a ruin than from a quarry. So even if the new town is on the next hill over, the accessible parts of ruins will often be quickly (in historical terms) cannibalized for parts. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/55 "2025-03-25T15:16:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And second, it’s much easier to get stone blocks from a ruin than from a quarry. So even if the new town is on the next hill over, the accessible parts of ruins will often be quickly (in historical terms) cannibalized for parts For example, the Rosetta Stone was discovered during the partial demolition of an 15th Century fort, because while to an eagle-eyed French lieutenant it might be a potential key to a lost script, to the locals it was just the right size and shape to fill in a gap in a wall. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/56 "2025-03-25T15:42:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Except pre-modern people had zero qualms about re-using all that lovely labour-intensive pre-cut masonry just lying around. True, and I knew that - for instance, the limestone exteriors of the Pyramids were stripped to help build the homes of rich residents of Cairo. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/57 "2025-03-25T16:00:00Z")
Oh, I hadn’t noticed I was ninja’d, lol. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/58 "2025-03-25T16:17:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Now that I think of it, I think we probably have _fewer_ ancient ruins now than we did in the past. On the other hand, [LiDAR archaeology](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/lidar-and-archaeology/) is revealing huge numbers of previously unknown lost ruins in places like Egypt and Central America. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/59 "2025-03-25T18:46:09Z")
Robert E. Howard, as Cal notes, was one of legions of writers who incorporated the Atlantis legend. He, like the others, was counting on the reader to be familiar with Atlantis because Plato’s writings were pervasive in the culture then in a way that mostly has been lost. I saw Plato’s writing on Atlantis described as decrying the “hubris of nations,” a theme that has never been absent from literature and commentary. True, Plato claimed that Atlantis had been sunk so left no ruins, but that didn’t stop it being found over and over down the centuries. Or compared to ruins on nearby Cyprus whose devastating earthquake is said to have inspired Plato. Ancient ruins are a more appropriate trope for fantasy; science fiction repurposes our current world in ruins in the far distant future as its equivalent. These were common in the pulp era. Writing as Don A. Stuart, John W. Campbell became a giant from his stories “Twilight” and “Night,” set in a far future where humans have lost all curiosity and drive. As editor he published Joseph E. Kelleam’s “Rust,” where the robots too are dying out because the war-blind humans made them able to kill but not create. Ruins are such a common yet awesome and eminently visual metaphor that it would be surprising to find them _left out_ of stories. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/60 "2025-03-25T19:17:06Z")
I suppose if you go back to a _really_ old setting, there simply weren’t that many cities, period. They are not a natural phenomenon, after all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029.md?page=4)