# The Paradox of ancient, crumbling abandoned cities in stories set in the ancient world **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 24, 2025, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029 "2025-03-24T13:28:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/61 "2025-03-25T19:17:16Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Ancient ruins are a more appropriate trope for fantasy; science fiction repurposes our current world in ruins in the far distant future as its equivalent Of course, ancient _alien_ ruins have played a huge role in science fiction. > [@DPRK](#): > > I suppose if you go back to a _really_ old setting, there simply weren’t that many cities, period. They are not a natural phenomenon, after all. In historical fiction, sure, but in SF and fantasy, the past, like the future, is effectively infinite. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/62 "2025-03-25T20:00:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Of course, ancient _alien_ ruins have played a huge role in science fiction. Absolutely, but that’s just a different form of the same displacement. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/63 "2025-03-25T20:38:38Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I suppose if you go back to a _really_ old setting, there simply weren’t that many cities, period. Even before cities, I think this would have been a thing. Some neolithic tribe settles in a fertile valley for a few generations, and does things like build cairns, or make cave paintings. They get wiped out for one reason or another, and two hundred years later, a different neolithic tribe finds the valley, and the cairns and the paintings and whatnot left by the previous tribe, and wonders, “Who were these ancients?” ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/64 "2025-03-25T21:01:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And didn’t prominent Romans like Caesar visit the thousand year old ruins of Troy? That was their version of the great and mythical past when men performed heroic deeds. The story of Julius Caesar visiting Troy was probably just made up by Lucan. But other Roman tourists did visit Troy. Alexander the Great had previously done so too. What however those tourists were visiting was the later, unruined city of Ilium (Troy IX), which they just assumed was the ancient city. Had it been ruined, they wouldn’t have been interested. All this is discussed by Roland Mayer as the opening section of his new book, [_The Ruins of Rome_](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ruins-of-rome/26863FA63C4541425091CD71CAEDF832). Mayer is inclined to the view that interest in ruins is culturally specific, mostly deriving from Western post-Roman interest in Roman ruins. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/65 "2025-03-25T22:16:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Specifically, when he was in his 30s, Caesar visited Alexander’s tomb and bemoaned how little he had accomplished compared to the man who conquered the known world by his age. Dude was basically asking to become famous and die young. 😅 And Alexander visited the tomb of Achilles, though since AFAIK there’s no evidence Achilles was a real person, what did Alexander visit exactly? > [@APB](#): > > The story of Julius Caesar visiting Troy was probably just made up by Lucan. But other Roman tourists did visit Troy. Alexander the Great had previously done so too. What however those tourists were visiting was the later, unruined city of Ilium (Troy IX), which they just assumed was the ancient city. Had it been ruined, they wouldn’t have been interested. All this is discussed by Roland Mayer as the opening section of his new book, [_The Ruins of Rome_](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ruins-of-rome/26863FA63C4541425091CD71CAEDF832). Mayer is inclined to the view that interest in ruins is culturally specific, mostly deriving from Western post-Roman interest in Roman ruins. I’ve heard this before, that interest in antiquities is a Western phenomenon, but it seems a bit convenient. The Romans wrote histories, the ancient Chinese did too, why wouldn’t they be interested in ruins as potentially a way to learn more about the past? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/66 "2025-04-04T21:41:03Z")
2 posts were merged into an existing topic: [65 Mustang Trock Posts](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/65-mustang-trock-posts/1016649/22) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/67 "2025-03-25T23:08:39Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Or compared to ruins on nearby Cyprus whose devastating earthquake is said to have inspired Plato. I thought that was Thera. But likely many places have been accused of being Atlantis. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/68 "2025-03-25T23:24:55Z")
Probably not [Thera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Thera). > Spyridon Marinatos, the discoverer of the Akrotiri archaeological site, suggested that the Minoan eruption is reflected in Plato’s story of Atlantis. This view remains prevalent in popular culture, as reflected in TV programs such as BBC’s Atlantis. However, this view is not supported by current scholarship. No ancient records refer to a devastation of Thera, but Cyprus was known. Nevertheless, I admit that the influence is still speculative. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/69 "2025-03-26T00:08:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’ve heard this before, that interest in antiquities is a Western phenomenon, but it seems a bit convenient. The Romans wrote histories, the ancient Chinese did too, why wouldn’t they be interested in ruins as potentially a way to learn more about the past? Maybe just a side effect of having extensive documentation stretching back centuries? Europeans look at an ancient ruin, and say, “Who knows what purpose this building once served? Maybe it was important; we should preserve it.” Chinese look at an ancient ruin, and say, “I pulled the tax records for this place, and it was a noodle hut with lots of health code violations. Go ahead and knock it down.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/70 "2025-03-26T00:26:04Z")
When Herodotus did his 7 Wonders in 400 or so BC, the pyramids were well over 2000 years old, And plenty of other ancient ruins around. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/72 "2025-03-26T01:37:39Z")
That’s one of the best posts in the thread, IMNSHO, Welcome to the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/73 "2025-03-26T02:12:29Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1016651/156): > > Nobody remembers why those rocks are lined up in a circle at Stonehenge. But everyone who lives there for past centuries knows they are there. Wasn’t Stonehenge largely collapsed until it was “restored” in the early modern era? (That is, to what people in the 18th century thought it had originally looked like.) ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/74 "2025-03-26T03:46:08Z")
Andre Norton loved this trope. Her science fiction novels had the Forerunners. Witch World had crumbled ruins. Places with power from old, old people and entities. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/75 "2025-03-26T04:36:28Z")
Yeah, it was one of her favorite plot devices. Heck, her Free Traders sci-fi setting had whole ruined worlds. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/76 "2025-03-26T19:06:01Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Wasn’t Stonehenge largely collapsed until it was “restored” in the early modern era? Partially restored. Many stones were still standing. > **[Excavation and Restoration: Stonehenge in the 1950s and 60s | English Heritage](https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/inspire-me/blog/blog-posts/excavation-restoration-stonehenge-1950s-60s/)** > > The years between 1950 and 1964 saw an explosion of research and conservation activity at Stonehenge, and restoration made the world's most famous prehistoric monument much easier to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/77 "2025-03-26T21:57:58Z")
Note that if your “ancient lost civilization” had shifted to primarily digital recordkeeping, it could remain “lost” forever. Forget not having the tech to read it, one good EMP and your Clouds are dispersed. Yet another reason why physical media is important. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/78 "2025-03-26T22:05:07Z")
Just how physically large would e.g. Wikipedia be if engraved on stone slabs? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/79 "2025-03-26T22:12:29Z")
Not to mention bills and meeting minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/80 "2025-03-26T22:13:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > Note that if your “ancient lost civilization” had shifted to primarily digital recordkeeping, it could remain “lost” forever. Forget not having the tech to read it, one good EMP and your Clouds are dispersed. > Yet another reason why physical media is important. Yeah; I’m reminded of a sci-fi story where we are known as the “Near Ancients”, a civilization that little is known of compared to those before or after because nearly all our records have vanished one way or another due to their digital nature. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029/81 "2025-03-26T22:33:33Z")
Paper isn’t that permanent unless special care is taken to preserve it. If it isn’t acid-free it will spontaneously degrade to fragments in a century, and even durable paper can rot or burn if it’s not protected. Physical film is as bad or worse, the instability and flammability of celluloid has lost us much of the early days of cinema. In general what gets preserved is what’s considered taking the care and expense to preserve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-paradox-of-ancient-crumbling-abandoned-cities-in-stories-set-in-the-ancient-world/1016029.md?page=5)