No. What it amounts to is the mind at rest. A painting of rice does not satify hunger, nor does being enlightened remove the physical needs of the human body, and I do not think anyone is suggesting that. For some, enlightenment can come as death does, however that is a decision not made by the owner of the mind.
A story:
Two monks were arguing about a temple flag wavking in the wind.
one said: “the flag moves” the other: “the wind moves”
The arguing continued until the head monk said: “it is not the flag that moves, nor the wind. It is your mind that moves”
Well, as with any religious/spiritual matter, this subject is allowing people to make definitive statements about the undefined.
Q: What is the sound of one spoon bending?
A: It is not the spoon that bends, but you.
How useful is the head monk’s outlook when it comes to, say, rebuilding the flagpole after a storm knocks it over? Or was it a storm at all; it might have been the minds of the monks? Why did they knock that pole over? Mental pole-ution?
I assumed there were some monks, too, but that was for the sake of politely addressing the illustration you created in what I thought was an effort to… um… illustrate something.
Who said Enlightment eliminates the need for physical sustenance? It doesn’t give you any magical powers, it’s just a different cognitive perspective on things.
I once read an anecdote somewhere (I think it may have been told by Watts but it may have been someone else) about a guy going to see some famous, enlightened monk, waiting days to get an audience and then being escorted into the room. The old monk sat on a mat, stared at the westerner for a minute and then lifted up a butt cheek and started scratching his ass. He told the young seeker that he had hemorrhoids. 'I had them before I was enlightened and I still had them after I got enlightened." Those were all the words of wisdom he had for the dude.
Ideas, insight and answers come either way. There doesn’t have to be a mystery or anything supernatural. Ideas and creativity aren’t the point anyway. Sometimes creativity can be part of the process (the “journey”) though. Did you ever notice how when you really get involved in doing something that you really like, you seem to lose your awareness of the passage of time?
Sometimes it’s not ideas or insight that is the result, it’s just a feeling of groundedness afterwards.
Don’t let words that sound like so much silliness put you off. As Diogenes said, this is really hard to discribe. Many of those who have experienced it don’t talk about it for that reason. They also see what happens to those who do try to talk about it.
There are good reasons why “sleeping on it” is beneficial and that doesn’t have to be a mystical reason. But why not tap the same source when you are alert?
I can’t remember who asked, but I think there are lots of ways to become self aware.
I must admit, I was surprised to see Diogenes take the position he did, but this all still sounds terribly “woo-woo” to me (Bryan’s spoon parody is right-on, in terms of how some of this comes off). Diogenes mentioned some observation of the relevant mental state in laboratory conditions; I’d like to hear more about that (preferably with cites). I don’t doubt that there do exist mental states fairly different from the norm (drugs are a handy way to see this for yourself), but I do doubt that there is anything more to them than one’s mind getting intensely twisted up in one fashion or another and then misinterpreting its delirium as moments of brilliance (drugs are a handy way to see this for yourself, as well).
But I will readily submit to controlled observation and scientific evidence saying the opposite (at least, I should hope I would, though I can’t be sure what my potential future self will do; I don’t voluntarily control my beliefs, and may find I have far too much skepticism on this matter to be dispelled so easily). So let’s hear more about those laboratory observations.
Ah, clearly the repeated use of “Everything” in post #16 needed an asterisk.
In any case, the difference between Enlightenment and the epiphanies experienced by many non-subscribers to Zen, as well as people tripping on various drugs and slipping into altered states of consciousness after going too long without sleep is at best undefined. If you want to claim Enlightenment is somehow more special than any of those, good luck. As far as I can tell, it’s just another aspect of the extremely complicated network that is the human brain, built up over several hundred million years of evolution, and of no greater objective significance than seeing patterns in clouds.
Interestingly (and I’m being quite serious), that’s pretty much Scientology’s claim of what happens at the “Clear” level, isn’t it? A mental state in which little-used mental resources are fully activated? I just don’t see it happening, though - if a Clear or an Enlightened person or a self-aware person (or whatever) could consciously tap these sources and achieve moments of brilliance, wouldn’t we see more of them in scientific or philosophical fields? Does enlightenment come with an understanding that using one’s gifted insight in measurable ways is irrelevant or wrong or bad in some way? Does the monk in DtC’s example ever do anything but sit uncomfortably on his mat?
And of course meditation doesn’t have to be religious. But undefined (if not undefinable) claims about what meditation can accomplish and similar claims about what religion can accomplish are effectively indistinguishable.
I believe that the “everything” in post #16 was only about perceptions, or cognitive interpretations of external stimuli and of the self (and the imposition of subjective conscious, ego, enculturation, etc. is something that was talked about by Plato), not literally about the material universe
I don’t think there is a difference. There are lots of ways to get there. I’ve been there both with chemical assistance and without it.
I don’t want to claim that.
You’re inferring interpretations of this state that I don’t think anyone has implied (I know I haven’t). I never said this state of mind had any objective significance or importance. I don’t believe it does. All I’m saying is that it exists and it has tremendous subjective signficance.
Then what about the elder monk who dismisses the flag and the wind? It’s the fortune-cookie pointlessness of buttonjockey’s posts that I’m happy to ridicule.
And I don’t disagree. We all have ideas and beliefs that are of tremendous subjective significance.
I know. That’s why I don’t talk about it much. I’m pretty good with words and I’m usually pretty good at being able to describe things in concrete terms but this stuff is tough to do that with because there aren’t a lot of frames of reference for it. If you know what it’s like to try to describe an acid trip to someone who’s never even smoked pot, it’s kind of like that. For instance, how do you communicate having experienced consciousness as a physical sensation? It’s weird. It’s like being a step removed from normal consciousness and suddenly “observing” that what you think of as your normal center of consciousness is largely just a physiological manifestation of biological/emotional needs and desires which are emanating “body” rather than the “mind.” The real “mind” lurks underneath that stuff and doesn’t get bothered by anything.
That sounds like a bunch of pretententious, pseudo-mystical crap, doesn’t it? And yet that’s the best I can do at describing it in the most literal terms possible.
You can get authentic moments of insight from drugs too. I’m not claiming there’s a difference.
[qupte]But I will readily submit to controlled observation and scientific evidence saying the opposite (at least, I should hope I would, though I can’t be sure what my potential future self will do; I don’t voluntarily control my beliefs, and may find I have far too much skepticism on this matter to be dispelled so easily). So let’s hear more about those laboratory observations.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not good at finding this stuff on line but this is a start.
A lot of my education on this comes from my academic background on this, particularly from a phase when I was obsessively interested in Eastern mysticism. I can remember both from classes and from independent reading at the time that yogic practitioners had been hooked up to EEGs and heart monitors and whatnot and verified significant changes in brainwaves (as well as other physical changes) while the subjects were in ecstatic samadhi states. It has also been repeatedly verified that these subjects can affect some unusal physiological controls such as being able to slow or “stop” their own heartbeats.
I can keep trying to find more stuff on this but I’m nt sure exactly what it is you want prrof for. Fr the record, I’m not claiming anything other than that a particaula state of consciousness exists. I’m not claiming any particular interpretation or explanation for it or attributing any special virtue or wsidom or magic to it. I personally think it’s just brain chemistry but it’s subjectively a very intense and sometimes authentically life changing experience.