# The Patient Protection Act Is About To Put $1.3 BILLION Back In Consumers' Pockets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665 "2012-05-12T02:19:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/1 "2012-05-12T02:19:13Z")
\*"We aren’t exactly out of “the fog of controversy” that then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi said we’d have to be out of before we could see the benefits of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, but we’re about to see just how right she was. … to the tune of $1.3 billion that will go back into healthcare consumers’ pockets because of the 80/20 rule written into the law. That’s $1.3 billion that can be used to save people’s homes. $1.3 billion that can help put food on empty tables. $1.3 billion that can put gas in people’s cars so they can get to job interviews, that can buy clothes for kids who’ve outgrown them, that can purchase much-needed school supplies, that can be set aside for retirement. That’s $1.3 billion that will be going back into our economy, helping lift us further out of the recession we’ve barely been scraping our way out of—because Republicans in Congress blocked every effort by President Obama to put people back to work. It’s $1.3 billion that was supposed to be used on patient health care … and wasn’t!"\* [http://www.winningwordsproject.com/the\_patient\_protection\_act\_is\_about\_to\_put\_1\_3\_billion\_back\_in\_consumers\_pockets](http://www.winningwordsproject.com/the_patient_protection_act_is_about_to_put_1_3_billion_back_in_consumers_pockets) What are the chances we’ll hear about this on Fox News? LOL Just kidding. Seriously, though, can we not at least all agree that this is a good thing? Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/2 "2012-05-12T03:05:22Z")
That’s about $4 per person. Truly a stunning accomplishment. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/3 "2012-05-12T03:09:25Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > That’s about $4 per person. Truly a stunning accomplishment. If you don’t want yours, I’ll be happy to take it. I mean, just to save you the hassle of dealing with it. Offer stands for anyone else reading this as well! I’m just trying to be helpful here. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/4 "2012-05-12T03:22:29Z")
Unless you have individual insurance you don’t get a dime. If you are under an employers plan your employer gets the money back, not you personally. That’s why the $1.3bn is going back to only around 16m Americans, if you aren’t a corporation or a small business owner or someone with an individual plan, you are not getting a rebate. But for those that do get rebates–congratulations, you made an interest free loan to the multibillion dollar insurance company that you buy health insurance from! You can also expect that as the years go on health insurance companies will get better and better at making sure fewer and fewer dollars fall under this requirement. Now that I think about it, a lot of the people getting rebates are probably Republicans, since this money will disproportionately be going to people like small business owners, or corporations (which aren’t human people at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/5 "2012-05-12T03:25:46Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You can also expect that as the years go on health insurance companies will get better and better at making sure fewer and fewer dollars fall under this requirement. You are aware that this is the point, right? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/6 "2012-05-12T03:26:57Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are aware that this is the point, right? The point is that insurance companies will get better at classifying non-medical expenses as medical expenses? I doubt that. Unless you think we’ve got our first fraud and abuse proof government program in history, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/7 "2012-05-12T03:29:19Z")
While it’s been alluded to above that $1.5bn is basically no money at all (even the shittiest Federal government agencies have budgets multiple times that amount), to put it in perspective the health insurance industry in the United States in an $850 billion industry. This is such a piddling amount I wonder why it justified any sort of post here at all, the DOD saves more money in a given year by switching toilet paper vendors. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/8 "2012-05-12T03:31:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The point is that insurance companies will get better at classifying non-medical expenses as medical expenses? I doubt that. Unless you think we’ve got our first fraud and abuse proof government program in history, of course. There are safeguard against that, as I recall. But feel free to pretend that you have personal knowledge of the loopholes that companies will use. Hell, why have laws against murder, because I’m sure Martin Hyde can come up with a scenario where someone might get killed anyway! \*Oh noes! \* ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/9 "2012-05-12T03:32:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is such a piddling amount I wonder why it justified any sort of post here at all, the DOD saves more money in a given year by switching toilet paper vendors. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/10 "2012-05-12T03:36:37Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Cite? Was obviously facetious. But the DOD has been reducing its expenses, in 2013 we’ll spend some $32bn less on defense than we spend in 2012, for example. That’s on a base budget of like $525bn, though. Even private companies like JP Morgan (if you’ve been reading the news) can blow more than this $1.3bn in a matter of weeks. I guess I’m just confused why someone felt the need to capitalize BILLION, this isn’t 1925, a billion dollars is not very much when talking about the entire United States. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/11 "2012-05-12T03:36:49Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Unless you have individual insurance you don’t get a dime. If you are under an employers plan your employer gets the money back, not you personally. That’s why the $1.3bn is going back to only around 16m Americans, if you aren’t a corporation or a small business owner or someone with an individual plan, you are not getting a rebate. But for those that do get rebates–congratulations, you made an interest free loan to the multibillion dollar insurance company that you buy health insurance from! You can also expect that as the years go on health insurance companies will get better and better at making sure fewer and fewer dollars fall under this requirement. > > Now that I think about it, a lot of the people getting rebates are probably Republicans, since this money will disproportionately be going to people like small business owners, or corporations (which aren’t human people at all.) Bzzzzt. The law requires businesses to return it to the employees. [QUOTE=Mark Halperin] The rebates will average around $127 for the over 3 million individuals who receive them directly. Small employers covering almost 5 million people will receive around $377 million (an average break of $76), while larger employers covering about 7.5 million people will get approximately $541 million (an average of $72). According to administration officials, employers are obligated to pass those savings onto their employees. Read more: [http://thepage.time.com/2012/05/11/halperins-take-why-aca-rebates-are-a-big-deal/#ixzz1ucfNp5Nr](http://thepage.time.com/2012/05/11/halperins-take-why-aca-rebates-are-a-big-deal/#ixzz1ucfNp5Nr) [/quote] It’s stunning to me that we can’t even get agreement that $1.3 billion freaking dollars being returned to people who didn’t have it appropriately applied to their healthcare is a good thing. What happened to the usual Republican chant of “it’s my money, you can’t take it from me, give it back”? I’ll bet you $10,000 that if this was a government administered program returning $1.3 billion dollars to taxpayers that it overcharged, you rightwingers would be SCREAMING bloody murder about inefficient “big” government. It’s getting to be absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/12 "2012-05-12T03:40:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > There are safeguard against that, as I recall. But feel free to pretend that you have personal knowledge of the loopholes that companies will use. Obviously I’m pretending to have personal knowledge of loopholes, since I never spoke about any specific ones. But I guess you believe we’ve produced the first government program with no loopholes or susceptibility to fraud? Is that your contention, yes or no? I recently read (and maybe you did too), that a huge amount of money laundering was flowing through banks into the United States. There are mandatory reporting requirements in the United States for suspicious transactions, so all of these should have been caught. But it ends up the actual people responsible for doing the front line investigation are bank employees, and the banks were putting their most worthless, slack ass employees in these roles. So criminals were doing massive money laundering not through shady dealers but major banks like HSBC and etc. Of course, way back in 2003 the U.S. government said HSBC wad doing a really shitty job of handling this, so obviously with the government involved a major bank like HSBC stopped being used by criminals to launder money. But wait, no, that’s not wait happened at all, this shit kept going on up until basically right now. But hey, there was tons of laws and regulations and auditors and government enforcement, so it’s unreasonable to have thought any of this might have happened. But yeah, on the expense reporting thing, we all know that’s something corporations never fudge numbers on, so I’m sure we’re all good. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/13 "2012-05-12T03:41:22Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Bzzzzt. The law requires businesses to return it to the employees. > It’s stunning to me that we can’t even get agreement that $1.3 billion freaking dollars being returned to people who didn’t have it appropriately applied to their healthcare is a good thing. What happened to the usual Republican chant of “it’s my money, you can’t take it from me, give it back”? I’ll bet you $10,000 that if this was a government administered program returning $1.3 billion dollars to taxpayers that it overcharged, you rightwingers would be SCREAMING bloody murder about inefficient “big” government. It’s getting to be absurd. Modern conservatism is similar to creationism. They start with the result, “Government is bad” and reason whatever evidence they find to fit it. 1.3 billion a year in waste removed? _“Piff, wake me up when you fail less hard, pussy.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/14 "2012-05-12T03:47:26Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Bzzzzt. The law requires businesses to return it to the employees. Absolutely incorrect: > [@](#): > > According to a study from the Kaiser Family Foundation, an estimated 16 million Americans, 31 percent of consumers in the individual health insurance market, will be receiving rebates of up to $150 from 2011 premiums. > > The Kaiser study was based on insurer filings to the standard-setting National Association of Insurance Commissioners, which includes rebates already paid and insurer estimates of planned payments on 2011 premium revenues. Specifically, the report estimates that $426 million will go to people who purchased an individual health insurance plan, and $377 million to small businesses. As for those with Employer Sponsored Health Insurance plans? In this case, the rebates will go to the employers who sponsor the plan, and Kaiser estimates a total $541 million will be returned. > > Some of the biggest rebate payouts are expected in states where healthcare reform has faced some of its strongest opposition from Republican politicians and other conservatives, including the states of Texas and Florida. ([full story](http://www.insuremonkey.com/community/health-insurers-provide-13-billion-rebates/)) And: > [@](#): > > Here’s how the rebates break down nationally: > > More than 3 million individual policyholders will reap rebates of $426 million, averaging $127 apiece. These are consumers who are not covered through an employer and buy their policy directly. Consumers in Texas, Oklahoma, South Carolina and Arizona are most likely to be eligible. Insurance companies must notify policyholders, and the rebates are due by Aug. 1. Some companies have already begun to pay. In the small-employer market, plans covering nearly 5 million people will receive rebates totaling $377 million. **Employers do not have to pass their rebates on to workers, and can also take them as a discount on next year’s premiums.** Insurers serving large employers face a stiffer requirement. Under the law, they must spend 85 percent of premiums on medical costs. The study found that 125 plans covering 7.5 million people at large employers will give back a total of $541 million. ([full story](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/53996781-68/rebates-health-insurance-consumers.html.csp)) So I guess: **Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzztttttttt** That’s the sound of you being absolutely wrong. Any other inaccuracies you would like to spread? > [@](#): > > It’s stunning to me that we can’t even get agreement that $1.3 billion freaking dollars being returned to people who didn’t have it appropriately applied to their healthcare is a good thing. What happened to the usual Republican chant of “it’s my money, you can’t take it from me, give it back”? I’ll bet you $10,000 that if this was a government administered program returning $1.3 billion dollars to taxpayers that it overcharged, you rightwingers would be SCREAMING bloody murder about inefficient “big” government. It’s getting to be absurd. $1.3bn to a very small number of people, some 35% of whom reside in only two states (Texas and Florida.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/15 "2012-05-12T03:56:55Z")
Maybe we can use the $1.3bn to replace some of the $14bn cost to us taxpayers to bail out lazy union auto workers in Michigan, that gets us close to breaking even…right? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/16 "2012-05-12T04:01:32Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Obviously I’m pretending to have personal knowledge of loopholes, since I never spoke about any specific ones. But I guess you believe we’ve produced the first government program with no loopholes or susceptibility to fraud? Is that your contention, yes or no? > > I recently read (and maybe you did too), that a huge amount of money laundering was flowing through banks into the United States. There are mandatory reporting requirements in the United States for suspicious transactions, so all of these should have been caught. But it ends up the actual people responsible for doing the front line investigation are bank employees, and the banks were putting their most worthless, slack ass employees in these roles. So criminals were doing massive money laundering not through shady dealers but major banks like HSBC and etc. > > Of course, way back in 2003 the U.S. government said HSBC wad doing a really shitty job of handling this, so obviously with the government involved a major bank like HSBC stopped being used by criminals to launder money. But wait, no, that’s not wait happened at all, this shit kept going on up until basically right now. > > But hey, there was tons of laws and regulations and auditors and government enforcement, so it’s unreasonable to have thought any of this might have happened. > > But yeah, on the expense reporting thing, we all know that’s something corporations never fudge numbers on, so I’m sure we’re all good. So huge companies are going to commit fraud as a matter of course? Interesting. I’m not sure how they’re going to say that the _corporate retreat_ counts as _radiology services_, but I guess you could just assume that they’ll ignore the law, since it makes you feel better. > **[Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight | CMS](https://www.cms.gov/marketplace/about/oversight)** > > Ensuring the Affordable Care Act Serves the American People The Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight (CCIIO) is charged with helping implement many reforms of the Affordable Care Act, the historic health reform bill that was signed... > [@](#): > > The rate review regulations work in conjunction with other parts of the Affordable Care Act that will also hold premiums down. The law requires insurers to spend at least 80 percent of premium dollars on direct medical care or to improve the quality of care instead of on overhead, advertising, and executive salaries and bonuses. If an insurer fails to meet that test, they must pay a rebate to their enrollees. This “medical loss ratio” regulation, released on November 22, 2010, makes the health insurance marketplace more transparent and increases the value consumers receive for their money. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/17 "2012-05-12T04:06:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Maybe we can use the $1.3bn to replace some of the $14bn cost to us taxpayers to bail out lazy union auto workers in Michigan, that gets us close to breaking even…right? Also, like a creationist, you’re gish-galloping now. You are aware that the auto-bailout saved perhaps an awful lot of jobs, right? In any case, try to stay on topic, by deflecting and dancing you’re only detracting from your central argument, _that saving 1.3 billion in a year is bad_. It’s a shitty argument, but it is yours. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/18 "2012-05-12T06:25:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Also, like a creationist, you’re gish-galloping now. > > You are aware that the auto-bailout saved perhaps an awful lot of jobs, right? In any case, try to stay on topic, by deflecting and dancing you’re only detracting from your central argument, _that saving 1.3 billion in a year is bad_. > > It’s a shitty argument, but it is yours. Who is saving $1.3bn a year? Not the government. Giving $1.3bn back from private insurance to the consumers isn’t government savings. Who exactly is saving the $1.3bn again? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/19 "2012-05-12T06:26:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So huge companies are going to commit fraud as a matter of course? Interesting. So you’ve avoided my question, let me pose it to you again: “Do you believe the expense requirement of this part of the “Obamacare” act is immune from fraud or loopholes?” Yes, or no. Anything other than yes or no I will not respond to. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665/20 "2012-05-12T06:57:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Who is saving $1.3bn a year? Not the government. Giving $1.3bn back from private insurance to the consumers isn’t government savings. Who exactly is saving the $1.3bn again? The people who paid for the insurance silly. But you’re ignoring that the point of this is to force the insurers into spending an appropriate ratio of their premiums on care. You really seem to not have a solid hold on this issue. Why does it piss you off so much? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patient-protection-act-is-about-to-put-1-3-billion-back-in-consumers-pockets/621665.md?page=2)