# The Patriot Act II: Saving America or Destroying it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720 "2003-02-17T21:23:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/1 "2003-02-17T21:23:12Z")
The Bush Administration appears ready to float new legislation attempting to strengthen the [Patriot Act.](http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/16/Columns/If_you_liked_Patriot_.shtml) Are we really having trouble stopping terrorists due to being hampered by the bill of rights when dealing with American Citizens, or is our existing structure of end-runs around the constitution, secret trials and tribunals already too much? And will the Bush Administration continue to float such anti-American trial balloons such as tapping all Americans with the [T.I.A](http://www.darpa.mil/iao/index.htm), upsetting all and sundry – until their opponents get tired? What exactly is this political plan of theirs? Strictly a power grab, consequences be damned? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/2 "2003-02-17T21:34:00Z")
While I fear that it would seriously erode our freedoms, I cannot believe that they are trying to subvert the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/3 "2003-02-17T21:41:21Z")
I almost started a debate thread on this earlier today, and started with a Google News search on the topic. I couldn’t find a _single_ editorial defending this thing, and even the superficially partial articles pointed out civil liberty problems. I think most people thought Patriot 1 went too far, I doubt many will have anything good to say about going even farther. I would like more information about the alleged “secret arrests” many editorials refer to, though. The one non-editorial article I saw about it, I think from Business Week, didn’t mention anything like that, and I wonder if that particular accusation is exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/4 "2003-02-17T21:45:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\*While I fear that it would seriously erode our freedoms, I cannot believe that they are trying to subvert the Constitution. \*\* Well, if you _can’t_ believe, it may be a quick debate. 🙂 The freedoms in question are [constitutionally founded ones](http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/bill_of_rights/amendments_1-10.html) – Article I, V-VII, and X. In what way can they erode these freedoms without subverting the constitution? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/5 "2003-02-17T21:49:13Z")
I don’t believe that they plan to subvert it. I think that when they are able to use secret pooice to investigate drug use and arrest pot smokers without trial, they will still think they are helping us and honestly believe themselves to be protecting the Constitution. I believe them to be obnoxious but not malicious if you will. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/6 "2003-02-17T21:50:57Z")
Or secret spell checkers for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/7 "2003-02-17T23:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ace of Swords \* > The Bush Administration appears ready to float new legislation attempting to strengthen the [Patriot Act.](http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/16/Columns/If_you_liked_Patriot_.shtml) Well, it certainly took the mass media to begin reporting on Patriot Act II. PBS broke the news about it more than ten days ago and the SDMB was right up there talking about it. Where were you? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/8 "2003-02-18T00:05:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duckster \* > \*\* > Where were you? 😃 \*\* Trying to unload my foreign satellite receveir. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/9 "2003-02-18T00:42:23Z")
Well, I don’t think that the Bush Administration will use it to destroy the nation. To be honest, I don’t think that they are that clever. They probably really will use it it a very sincere, albeit misguided, attempt to catch “terrorists.” As for future administrations, I’m going to optimistically say that when PATRIOT II (Electric Bugaloo) is used for other nefarious purposes, it will fail before the Supreme Court. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go report for reprogramming. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/10 "2003-02-18T05:49:44Z")
Remember when GWB said how this would be easier if America was a dictatorship and he was the dictator? I hope this never gets to be voted on by Congress, because who would even vote against it? Just look at the vote totals from the first Patriot act or even the War on Iraq vote. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/11 "2003-02-18T13:23:20Z")
When did he say that, Elwood? In a friendly spirit (Cause I don’t like him, either) CP ---
**Author:** ![mystic2311](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mystic2311](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mystic2311)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/12 "2003-02-20T22:24:34Z")
Bush and Ashcroft are definitely fascists who are trying to destroy America to institute a corporate dictatorship. It is all spelled out in the Cancer Stage of Capitalism by John McMurtry. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/13 "2003-02-20T22:39:13Z")
Harborwolf, you made me spit coffee all over my moitor…thanks. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-patriot-act-ii-saving-america-or-destroying-it/155720/14 "2003-02-20T22:40:32Z")
Um. That should be monitor. Stupid keyboard.