# "The Pedophile’s Guide to Love and Pleasure" and Amazon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388 "2010-11-12T03:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/181 "2010-11-15T18:51:52Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I agree. And in this case I believe the foundation is solid and that the gripe is legitimate. So why am I wrong? Or am I wrong just because? What do you consider the foundation and the gripe? That freedom exists, and that as a result some books are icky? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/182 "2010-11-15T18:54:45Z")
The foundation is that if pedophiles want a how-to book, find some other place to hawk it – and they’re free to. The gripe, and I’m just going out on a limb here, is that child molestation is bad. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/183 "2010-11-15T18:58:12Z")
I think you probably switched those. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/184 "2010-11-15T19:04:07Z")
So are a lot of other things that get shelf space. The question is why is anyone taking it upon themselves to monitor what a bookseller sells to other people? The content of a whole LOT of books could be perceived as “bad,” starting with the Bible which. aside from occasionally commanding or approving of the murder of children and infants, also endorses such things as rape and slavery. It would of course, be my right to write harassing emails to Amazon or start dickhole Twitter campaigns to pressure Amazon into dropping the Bible, but it would still be obnoxious. All books are exactly the same with regards to this issue. The exact book the mob gets worked up about is not relevant. It’s obnoxious and counterproductive for them do it with _any_ book, and offense can be found in practically any book. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/185 "2010-11-15T19:10:10Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I don’t think you truly grasp or appreciate the meaning of “freedom.” Unless you understand that it belongs to everybody, not just yourself, and will protect the speech you disagree with, you don’t get it. I don’t really think you grasp or appreciate it’s meaning. Freedom doesn’t just apply to Amazon or the author of the book. It also applies to those who wish to use moral suasion to get Amazon to stop selling the book. You’re wrong to think that I don’t defend the rights of this guy to publish his book. I just think it’s okay to boycott businesses that choose to sell it. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/186 "2010-11-15T19:19:27Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > **OpalCat** , I think that there’s a difference between just giving out feedback (this product tastes bad, and I’m not going to buy it) and saying, “This product sucks and no one else should buy it.” See I think it’s more “This product sucks and it makes you look bad by association for carrying it.” My mom’s email was not an attempt to have the man silenced, just to have Amazon not carry the book as she believed it tarnished them and, also by association, her own books. I’m still not seeing the dick move here. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/187 "2010-11-15T19:21:25Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I don’t really think you grasp or appreciate it’s meaning. Freedom doesn’t just apply to Amazon or the author of the book. It also applies to those who wish to use moral suasion to get Amazon to stop selling the book. You’re wrong to think that I don’t defend the rights of this guy to publish his book. The cranky old man yelling at librarians to remove Laurie Halse Anderson’s SPEAK is also practicing free speech. He has a right to yell, and he isn’t attempting to get a legal ban of the book. He is merely trying to prevent others from having access to it because he thinks the book is wicked and that he knows best what the whole world ought to be reading. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/188 "2010-11-15T19:36:14Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > See I think it’s more “This product sucks and it makes you look bad by association for carrying it.” My mom’s email was not an attempt to have the man silenced, just to have Amazon not carry the book as she believed it tarnished them and, also by association, her own books. Most book bannings are of that sort. I know of few in America that actually imprisoned the author. It is always blocking distribution. This is not something other than censorship and book banning as it is always practiced in the US, and as far as I know, it almost always occurs legally – by replacing school board members with those who will drop offensive books from the curriculum, by un-funding libraries that carry objectionable books, by pressuring advertisers into pulling ads from magazines with unpleasant articles, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/189 "2010-11-15T19:37:19Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > The cranky old man yelling at librarians to remove Laurie Halse Anderson’s SPEAK is also practicing free speech. He has a right to yell, and he isn’t attempting to get a legal ban of the book. He is merely trying to prevent others from having access to it because he thinks the book is wicked and that he knows best what the whole world ought to be reading. I’m glad to see that we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/190 "2010-11-15T19:50:48Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > This is really the meat of the great debate I think. There’s no threat to free speech going on here. Zero. Zip. Zilch. \ Zima (there). Free speech is a two way boulevard. The author of the book is certainly free publish his book and [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) is certainly free to distribute it. People who choose to boycott Amazon over this or petition for them to remove the book from their store are simply exercising their right to free speech. And being douchebags. OpalCat’s mom feels that only her side of the debate over pedophilia, such as it is, deserves to be heard. She thinks his book should not be sold, but hers should. Now I happen to feel that anti-free speech people’s posts should not be published on the Dope, as I think such people are evil scum bent on thought control. And I wont buy any of Cecil’s books unless this is done! And I’m not being a douchebag, oh nooooooooooo … ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/191 "2010-11-15T20:00:11Z")
It would never occur to me in a million years to think other books at the same bookstore somehow taint mine. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/192 "2010-11-15T20:07:58Z")
Question – what if Amazon had decided orginally not to sell the book? When Greaver approached them they said no, we would prefer not to sell this. Would Amazon be a “douchebag” in this instance? Would they be “violating freedom of speech?” Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/193 "2010-11-15T20:12:12Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > See I think it’s more “This product sucks and it makes you look bad by association for carrying it.” My mom’s email was not an attempt to have the man silenced, just to have Amazon not carry the book as she believed it tarnished them and, also by association, her own books. I’m still not seeing the dick move here. Does your mother believe that carrying [The Turner Diaries](http://www.amazon.com/Turner-Diaries-Novel-Andrew-MacDonald/dp/1569800863), Tim McVeigh’s handbook for the Oklahoma City bombings and the admitted inspiration for the murder of James Byrd in Texas (the black man that two redmecks dragged behind a truck so they could, according to their own words, “make _The Turner Diaries_ come early”) also “suck and make her look bad by association?” How about Samuel Delaney’s [Hogg](http://www.amazon.com/Hogg-Novel-Samuel-R-Delany/dp/1573661198/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289851109&sr=1-1), which features excruciatingly graphic and remorseless pornographic descriptions of children being raped tortured and debased in the most grotesque ways possible. It makes this particular pedophile handbook look responsible by comparison. Has your mother written sanctimonious emails about those books too? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/194 "2010-11-15T20:14:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Question – what if Amazon had decided orginally not to sell the book? When Greaver approached them they said no, we would prefer not to sell this. > > Would Amazon be a “douchebag” in this instance? Would they be “violating freedom of speech?” > Just curious. Amazon is not being called the douche in either circumstance. It’s the busybodies who pressure them to stop selling books they don’t like who are the douchebags. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/195 "2010-11-15T20:17:02Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > It would never occur to me in a million years to think other books at the same bookstore somehow taint mine. I’ve seen your books placed mere paces away from the _Twilight_ books. Your books did not seem pleased. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/196 "2010-11-15T20:20:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Question – what if Amazon had decided orginally not to sell the book? When Greaver approached them they said no, we would prefer not to sell this. > > Would Amazon be a “douchebag” in this instance? Would they be “violating freedom of speech?” > Just curious. Since everyone has agreed that Amazon has a right to drop the book anyway, and nobody has suggested it’s a legally defined “freedom of speech” case, I don’t know why you need to ask. None of us think that free speech has been violated. Just chilled. For the first part… hmmm… well, suppose they had any selection criteria at all. They’d be entitled to enforce them. What those selection criteria are and how evenly they are enforced would be very important to judging how douchebaggy the company is. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/197 "2010-11-15T20:43:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Does your mother believe that…[snip] > > Has your mother written sanctimonious emails about those books too? If not, why not? 1. how would I know? 2. her email was very polite and professional but thanks for putting your trademark emotional language into it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/198 "2010-11-15T21:10:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > And being douchebags. OpalCat’s mom feels that only her side of the debate over pedophilia, such as it is, deserves to be heard. She thinks his book should not be sold, but hers should. Now I happen to feel that anti-free speech people’s posts should not be published on the Dope, as I think such people are evil scum bent on thought control. And I wont buy any of Cecil’s books unless this is done! And I’m not being a douchebag, oh nooooooooooo … Quite frankly, **Evil** , I literally could not care less about who is or isn’t a douche bag in this debate. It just doesn’t matter when it comes to the big picture. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/199 "2010-11-15T21:14:38Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > The cranky old man yelling at librarians to remove Laurie Halse Anderson’s SPEAK is also practicing free speech. He has a right to yell, and he isn’t attempting to get a legal ban of the book. He is merely trying to prevent others from having access to it because he thinks the book is wicked and that he knows best what the whole world ought to be reading. > [@Odesio](#): > > I’m glad to see that we agree. But unlike with the Amazon situation, if the library gave in and decided to remove the book, this actually would fall into the category of censorship. Amazon is a private company and can do what they want. If we’re talking about a public library, the man has a right to voice his concerns but if the library opts to remove the book, they would be censoring it. Which is not to say that no library can ever remove a book but there are book collection and weeding policies for just that purpose. Removing a book because it’s falling apart is one thing, or because it’s a YA book placed in the children’s room, but just removing it because someone complains is censorship. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388/200 "2010-11-15T21:17:22Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > If we’re talking about a public library, the man has a right to voice his concerns but if the library opts to remove the book, they would be censoring it. Which is not to say that no library can ever remove a book but there are book collection and weeding policies for just that purpose. I seriously doubt your typical public library would have carried this book in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pedophile-s-guide-to-love-and-pleasure-and-amazon/560388.md?page=11)