# The penalty for making a false allegation of rape? £200 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 11, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896 "2018-06-11T17:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/81 "2018-06-12T14:08:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That’s a bit circular. > > Ask absolutely anyone who was formally and falsely accused of rape if the harm is only hypothetical. Sorry, I’ve played enough of your game for today. You’re being thoroughly disingenuous. From now on when I see your name, I’ll just assume it’s intended as an invitation --Whack-a-Mole?-- one which I shall probably decline. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/82 "2018-06-12T14:18:09Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… no. > > Feel free to continue to wallow in your own ignorance. I am ignorant of many things, but I’m pretty sure I know what you’re up to when you say > [@Quartz](#): > > If the man had been convicted, how many women would be satisfied with a £200 fine and a suspended sentence? Still, if you’ve got some justification for saying that, lemme hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/83 "2018-06-12T14:23:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is akin to you tying me up and then dipping me into a pool of piranhas and suggesting you have nothing to do with the piranhas eating me. :rolleyes: Oh well, so much for the brief visit from common sense. No, even prison rapists are human beings with responsibility for their own criminal actions, not piranhas. We’ve all agreed that falsely accusing somebody of a crime is a very bad thing, and even worse if the accuser persists in it to the extent of enabling an unjust conviction and imprisonment. But even that does not make the accuser directly responsible for a prison rape committed on the unjustly imprisoned person by a fellow inmate. The responsible party in the case of **that** crime is the prison rapist (and, to a lesser extent, prison employees and officials guilty of any negligence in safeguarding their charges from such crimes). This sort of thinking is **very** typical of ingrained rape-culture attitudes in our society, in which it’s commonly assumed that rape is just “something men do”. It’s somehow a kind of natural hazard “akin” to being eaten by piranhas if you recklessly jump or get thrown into a piranha pool. In this type of thinking, it’s women who are held primarily responsible for preventing rape by men, by making sure that they stay away from the piranha pool. If they somehow get into the piranha pool then it’s their doing if they get eaten, not the piranhas’. And naturally, if they maliciously push someone **else** into the piranha pool, then all the responsibility for that harm rests with them. Of course, if we assume that men are not piranhas but self-aware human beings with control over and responsibility for their own actions, then this type of argument becomes absurd. But a lot of people are unconsciously willing to temporarily suspend that assumption in order to excuse men from some or all of the responsibility of committing sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/84 "2018-06-12T14:31:07Z")
> [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > Doesn’t work that way in real life. Say you’ve got two guys applying for the same job. The first is experienced and has great references. The second is experienced and has great references _but_ you hear on the grape vine that he was arrested for rape but beat the rap. Something about getting his accuser to take it all back. You’re not clear on the details. Whatever. Anyway. Which one do you pick? Be honest. Me, I’d pick whichever one was my frat bro, like in reality. _chest bump_ Or maybe, just _maybe_, it depends on what I’ve heard, what I think about the truth or falsehood of _that particular_ accusation, etc. I don’t have a one-size fits all answer. I tend to believe accuser over accused about grey cases, because there’s _much_ more rape than false accusations, but the guy in the OP, for instance, isn’t a grey case - if he came in for a job, I wouldn’t hold that case against him at all. > [@](#): > > Or let’s say you need someone to babysit your 13 year old daughter for an evening at short notice. Do you pick your cousin? Or your other cousin who once got accused of rape? :rolleyes: What about my 13 yo son? What 13 yo needs a babysitter? 13 yo should be doing the babysitting. But otherwise, same answer as the job interview. It depends on a lot more than your barebones setup. > [@](#): > > Or let’s say your female friend asks you to set her up with one of your male friends. Do you set her up with Dave, who’s a perfectly nice guy. Or do you set her up with Steve, who’s also a perfectly nice guy, but who was once arrested for rape? I’d set her up with whichever one I thought matched her best - and I’d tell her about the accusation, if it’s Steve. And again, same answer as the job applicant. > [@](#): > > Or let’s look at yourself. If a friend of yours was accused of rape, and the accuser retracted the accusation, can you honestly tell me your friendship wouldn’t be negatively affected at all? I _have_ friends like that, so clearly yes, I can tell you that. I _also_ have ex-friends - because I did believe the accuser retracted under social duress. > [@](#): > > Can you honestly tell me there wouldn’t be a small part of you that wouldn’t forever ask _"What if…_ I tend to do the investigation and analysis thoroughly up front, and then leave it at that, actually. Not that I’m not open to having my mind changed about someone, but I don’t run around second guessing all my relationships based on what I hear “through the grapevine” - if I hear something, I _ask_ the people involved. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/85 "2018-06-12T15:46:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Which is still a ludicrously irrational basis for sentencing. The severity of punishment should correlate to the damage of the **actual crime committed** , not on the damage of a **nonexistent completely hypothetical crime that never happened**. > > By your absurdly bass-ackwards reasoning, an accuser who falsely accused someone of a more mild form of sexual assault **and stuck to that false claim all the way up through arrest and trial and imprisonment** would get a lighter punishment than an accuser who made a false accusation of a really violent rape **but retracted and apologized for the accusation almost immediately**. Can you really not see how fucking stupid that idea is? > Hurray, an extremely belated victory for common sense! All that and your last bit is acknowledgement I am not proposing the first bit you spent so much energy getting into a tizzy over. Indeed I said in my first post in this thread that same thing. But you are too wrapped up in indignation and too eager to chastise me that you missed it…even in your own response. > [@Kimstu](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh well, so much for the brief visit from common sense. No, even prison rapists are human beings with responsibility for their own criminal actions, not piranhas. > > We’ve all agreed that falsely accusing somebody of a crime is a very bad thing, and even worse if the accuser persists in it to the extent of enabling an unjust conviction and imprisonment. But even that does not make the accuser directly responsible for a prison rape committed on the unjustly imprisoned person by a fellow inmate. The responsible party in the case of **that** crime is the prison rapist (and, to a lesser extent, prison employees and officials guilty of any negligence in safeguarding their charges from such crimes). The false accusers actions put the accused in the dangerous position that is jail. A place they would not be but for the false accusation. If I dump you in the middle of a battlefield that you otherwise would not be near I think I have some responsibility for you getting shot. I would not suggest I am free and clear because someone else pulled the trigger. Besides which there are plenty of very real harms aside from the violence of prison as have been mentioned. > [@](#): > > This sort of thinking is **very** typical of ingrained rape-culture attitudes in our society, in which it’s commonly assumed that rape is just “something men do”. It’s somehow a kind of natural hazard “akin” to being eaten by piranhas if you recklessly jump or get thrown into a piranha pool. And there’s the strawman. Nothing I have said is a product of “rape culture” or condoning it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/86 "2018-06-12T15:58:00Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > Sorry, I’ve played enough of your game for today. > You’re being thoroughly disingenuous. > From now on when I see your name, I’ll just assume it’s intended as an invitation --Whack-a-Mole?-- one which I shall probably decline. So you’ve got nothing. Roger that. There is nothing disingenuous about it. Indeed the law deems a false accusation as inherently doing damage. In civil law there is something called [defamation per se](https://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-personal-injuries/what-is-defamation-per-se-.html). In most defamation cases you need to prove damages to recover some money. In defamation per se cases the false statement is presumed harmful. A false rape accusation would count as defamation per se. Wave your hands all you want about “hypothetical” damage. The law presumes damage in such a case. I wonder why that is? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/87 "2018-06-12T16:15:27Z")
One thing it will certainly do is reduce the number of reported rapes. Now if a woman isn’t confident she (or her lawyer) can get a conviction then she’s at a huge risk going to jail. Is that how you want the justice system to work, every criminal trial ends up with someone in jail? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/88 "2018-06-12T16:30:40Z")
Again, that is not the way it works. If Alice accuses Bob of rape, and Bob is found not guilty, that **does not** mean that Alice is guilty of false accusation. Both get the benefit of reasonable doubt. If the juries are unsure of whether the crime actually happened or not, then both should be acquitted, because both have reasonable doubt. Even if the juries are 100% certain that the crime did not occur, then they’d still have to prove that Alice _knew_ that the crime did not occur: If there’s even a reasonable doubt that Alice, in good faith, thought that Bob raped her, then that’s still enough for her to be found not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/89 "2018-06-12T16:44:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > All that and your last bit is acknowledgement I am not proposing the first bit you spent so much energy getting into a tizzy over. Well, at least now you’re sufficiently embarrassed about the illogicality of your position that you’re trying to change the subject away from your insistence that it would be **appropriate** to your concession that it would be impractical to actually **implement**. Doesn’t make it any less stupid that you seriously tried to claim that > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > the appropriate penalty is whatever the crime being falsely accused would get No, it would not be “appropriate” to penalize a false accuser for the severity of the (nonexistent) crime in the false accusation rather than the severity of the **actual** crime they **committed**. Not even in theory. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The false accusers actions put the accused in the dangerous position that is jail. A place they would not be but for the false accusation. And nobody is in any way trying to claim that that’s not a bad and criminal thing to do. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If I dump you in the middle of a battlefield that you otherwise would not be near I think I have some responsibility for you getting shot. I would not suggest I am free and clear because someone else pulled the trigger. And you’re still trying to tap-dance around the difference in the **responsibility** for the violence in those situations. By the laws of war, a battlefield is a place where those present are **supposed** to get shot. A prison is not a place where those present are supposed to get raped. Shooting people on a battlefield whom you believe in good faith to be enemy soldiers is not a crime. Raping people, even in prison, is. In your eagerness to maximize the guilt and responsibility of somebody making a false accusation (which, again, we’ve all already agreed several times is a very bad thing in and of itself), you’re downplaying and minimizing the guilt and responsibility of somebody who deliberately rapes a fellow inmate. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Nothing I have said is a product of “rape culture” or condoning it. Nobody’s accusing you of deliberately condoning rape culture, but pretty much everything you’ve said in this thread is a product of long unthinking immersion in a societal mindset that includes rape culture. Particularly your “piranha pool” simile for rhetorically morphing violent rapists, and their enablers in what’s supposed to be a secure environment, from responsible conscious agents into some kind of blind force of nature. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/90 "2018-06-12T16:52:03Z")
The more **Whack-a-Mole** exhorts how false accusations of rape are a neutron bomb on a person’s life, the more I think he’s engaged in sexual activities that he thinks are juuuuuuuust this side of the line. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/91 "2018-06-12T16:54:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The more **Whack-a-Mole** exhorts how false accusations of rape are a neutron bomb on a person’s life, the more I think he’s engaged in sexual activities that he thinks are juuuuuuuust this side of the line. I hate this kind of post. He’s crazy, he’s wrong, he’s crazy-wrong–but suggesting that people can only make this sort of argument if they’re a rapist is a bullshit argument. I find him all kinds of fucked up and called him on it, but that sure as hell doesn’t mean that I’ve made a false rape accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/92 "2018-06-12T17:03:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I hate this kind of post. He’s crazy, he’s wrong, he’s crazy-wrong–but suggesting that people can only make this sort of argument if they’re a rapist is a bullshit argument. I find him all kinds of fucked up and called him on it, but that sure as hell doesn’t mean that I’ve made a false rape accusation. I didn’t say he was a rapist, fuckwit, I said it seems like he’s arguing out of concern for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/93 "2018-06-12T17:10:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I didn’t say he was a rapist, fuckwit, I said it seems like he’s arguing out of concern for himself. I didn’t say you said he was a rapist, fuckwit, I said you suggested it, dimwit. Which you did, nitwit. There’s no more evidence he’s arguing out of concern for himself than that you or I are arguing out of concern for ourselves, halfwit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/94 "2018-06-12T17:17:00Z")
**LHoD** , for maximum artistic effect you’d have put your wits in alphabetical order, there. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/95 "2018-06-12T17:18:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I didn’t say you said he was a rapist, fuckwit, I said you suggested it, dimwit. Which you did, nitwit. There’s no more evidence he’s arguing out of concern for himself than that you or I are arguing out of concern for ourselves, halfwit. Okay, quarterwit, how does an idiot like you get inside my head and know what I reeeeeeaally meant as opposed to what I typed? You don’t. I have literally no opinion on his sexual activities, and cannot even guess whether he’s done anything wrong. I’m saying that his obsession with this make me think that he feels personal jeopardy in this matter – and I have no damned clue whether that’s something he ought to be concerned about, or whether he’s paranoid. ETA: this is the difference between something implied and something inferred. You can take your statements that I accused him of rape and cram it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/96 "2018-06-12T17:19:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **LHoD** , for maximum artistic effect you’d have put your wits in alphabetical order, there. You didn’t see the order I put them in? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Okay, quarterwit, how does an idiot like you get inside my head and know what I reeeeeeaally meant as opposed to what I typed? The same way you get inside Whackaloon’s head, no doubt, you twit. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/97 "2018-06-12T17:23:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The same way you get inside Whackaloon’s head, no doubt, you twit. You call him whacko, that’s okay. I call him potentially paranoid, and I’m the dick. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/98 "2018-06-12T17:28:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You call him whacko, that’s okay. I call him potentially paranoid, and I’m the dick. Sure. I’ll hold off from name-calling for a moment, because this is the part I think is a terrible way to post: > [@](#): > > the more I think he’s engaged in sexual activities that he thinks are juuuuuuuust this side of the line. You didn’t emphasize his fears–you emphasized his engaging in sexual activities. That really doesn’t read to me like, “Dude is unnecessarily fearsome of a false accusation,” it reads like, “Dude is a creepster toward women.” It is 100% possible to hold a shitty and terrible opinion like his without having a personal stake in that shitty, terrible opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/99 "2018-06-12T18:15:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ll hold off from name-calling for a moment, because this is the part I think is a terrible way to post: > > You didn’t emphasize his fears–you emphasized his engaging in sexual activities. That really doesn’t read to me like, “Dude is unnecessarily fearsome of a false accusation,” it reads like, “Dude is a creepster toward women.” > > It is 100% possible to hold a shitty and terrible opinion like his without having a personal stake in that shitty, terrible opinion. The emphasis in that part of the quote should be… > [@](#): > > the more I think he’s engaged in sexual activities **that he thinks** are juuuuuuuust this side of the line. I suppose I could have underlined and bolded that part to be clearer from the outset, but my intention all along was a commentary on his conscience, not his activities. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896/100 "2018-06-12T18:32:01Z")
I’ll just start by saying that it’s pretty clear that the young woman very easily _could_ have suffered a much stiffer sentence, but only barely dodged it due to extenuating circumstances of age and behavior. Saying that her light sentence destroys the deterrent effect against falsifying rape claims is like saying that when a child steals a candy bar he must be put through a trial by jury or it’s undermining the legal system. That said, I don’t know what she would have gotten absent the extenuating circumstances, but I certainly hope it would be less than if she’d _actually raped someone_, because that would be bumfuck stupid. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The false accusers actions put the accused in the dangerous position that is jail. A place they would not be but for the false accusation. If I dump you in the middle of a battlefield that you otherwise would not be near I think I have some responsibility for you getting shot. I would not suggest I am free and clear because someone else pulled the trigger. It sounds like you’re saying that prison is cruel and unusual punishment. Which very well may be the case - though, wait, I only know about american prisons. Are british prisons unconstitutional hellholes too? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-making-a-false-allegation-of-rape-200/815896.md?page=6)