# The penalty for sin is.......... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478 "2001-09-09T03:57:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/1 "2001-09-09T03:57:57Z")
I believe in God, the God of the Bible that is. But I confess ignorance on things. The Bible says the penalty for sin is death, right? Then at the resurection, we should all be ok, right? Because we paid the price, we died. Right? Explain this to me. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/2 "2001-09-09T04:04:23Z")
The death as penalty for sin in the Bible refers to the death of your soul, not your body. That’s as clear as I can get for you, as I can’t tell you what the death of your soul means, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/3 "2001-09-09T04:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pkbites \* > \*\*I believe in God, the God of the Bible that is. But I confess ignorance on things. > > The Bible says the penalty for sin is death, right? Then at the resurection, we should all be ok, right? Because we paid the price, we died. Right? Explain this to me. \*\* That is what the bible says. The penalty was paid by Christ long ago, so that death as a permanent consequence has been overcome. So you will be all right at resurection. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/4 "2001-09-09T04:47:28Z")
My old English teacher always talked about syntax. Is that related? I mean, taxes are generally a penalty… ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/5 "2001-09-09T05:10:01Z")
If you believe in **the God of the bible** and don’t know _an answer_ to this, it seems to me you have not read the bible enough or gone to church enough. There are many variations in belief as to what happens, but basically before Jesus, the soul went to hell. The really bad guys went to the bad parts of hell. The not so bad people (like Moses) went to limbo, which wasn’t too bad but wasn’t great either. When Jesus came along and died for our sins it meant that if anyone _believed that Jesus was their savior_ then they would go to heaven and everyone else would go to hell. There will be a lot of disagreement on what I just said, but it will get the ball rolling. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/6 "2001-09-09T06:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > \*\*If you believe in **the God of the bible** and don’t know _an answer_ to this, it seems to me you have not read the bible enough or gone to church enough. > > There are many variations in belief as to what happens, > > There will be a lot of disagreement on what I just said, but it will get the ball rolling. \*\* First I haven’t gone to church/read the Bible enough, then there are many variations in belief, then there will be alot of disagreement on what you said. Thanks for the response, **Kniz** , but your kind of all over the map. Do I ever have to go to church or even read the Bible to believe in the God of the Bible? No. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/7 "2001-09-09T06:26:40Z")
I had always heard it said that “the wages of sin is death”.(Romans 6:23). That’s not the same thing at all. Maybe there’s a scholar of ancient greek hanging about tonight ? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/8 "2001-09-09T07:02:16Z")
**Squink** , the Greek word in Rom 6:23 is the plural of _opsonion_, which my book translates as “pay, wages, compensation”. But I’m not a Greek scholar, so I can’t offer a very insightful reading. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/9 "2001-09-09T15:10:29Z")
The traditional Christian answer has been that the penalty for sin is eternal damnation to Hell. > [@](#): > > And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ – [Mark 9:47-48](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MARK+9:47-48&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) > [@](#): > > A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” – [Revelation 14:9-11](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+14:9-11&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off&showxref=on) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/10 "2001-09-09T16:03:03Z")
I’ve never been sure about the ‘Jesus died for our sins’ stuff - I hope it means if you believe, you don’t go to hell, but I’m truly not sure. Anyway, one thing I do know is that God/Jesus was quite insistant that if you repent your sins, they’ll be forgiven, and that he’s merciful. Just thought I’d toss that in to complicate things. 🙂 Basically, if you obey the Bible, you don’t go to hell. I think. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/11 "2001-09-09T16:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > **The death as penalty for sin in the Bible refers to the death of your soul, not your body** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > **That is what the bible says. The penalty was paid by Christ long ago, so that death as a permanent consequence has been overcome.** So, if the penalty for sin is the death of the soul, how can Jesus’ physical death be considered payment for anybody’s sins? He did not sacrifice his soul, just his body. For someone who is immortal, three days of death is hardly payment in full for the billions of sinful lives on earth. Now, if the Son of God sacrificed himself to an eternity in hell, that would be something. Even I might have to repent. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/12 "2001-09-09T16:57:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pkbites \* > First I haven’t gone to church/read the Bible enough, then there are many variations in belief, then there will be alot of disagreement on what you said. Thanks for the response, **Kniz** , but your kind of all over the map. > > Do I ever have to go to church or even read the Bible to believe in the God of the Bible? No. First, if you had read the bible and gone to church you would know that according to Christainity going to heaven is not because we paid the price and died. It is because Jesus died for our sins. I don’t mean you have to believe that but that you would already know this as the doctrine. Second, there are many variations, almost as many as there are different denominations. It is one of the big differences between Catholics and Protestants. For one thing, I don’t know them all and for another it’d take too long to go there. Last, I think you do have to read the bible or go to church (actually do both) to really know the God of the bible. Now if you want to believe in your own personal God that is great. As to my being all over the map, that was intentional because this subject is not cut and dried. As a matter of fact, I don’t know why it doesn’t really belong in GD, because it isn’t a GQ. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/13 "2001-09-09T17:07:19Z")
I think we’re well into Great Debates territory now, so I’ll move this. bibliophage moderator GQ ---
**Author:** ![Angelnside](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Angelnside](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angelnside)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2001, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/14 "2001-09-09T20:05:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pkbites \* > \*\*The Bible says the penalty for sin is death, right? Then at the resurection, we should all be ok, right? Because we paid the price, we died. Right? Explain this to me. \*\* The verse in the Bible that I believe you are alluding to has already been mentioned as being Romans 6:23. The New American Standard Version (NAS) of Romans 6:23 states, **For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.** Why don’t you take a look at the information that can be found by using the [Bible Study Tool: The NAS Strong’s Version](http://www.biblestudytools.net/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=Romans+6%3A23%C2%A7ion=0&version=nsn&showtools=1&language=en) There you can reference the words of Paul, an original **Straight Dope**. Paul, was an amazing man, he wasn’t just your _average_ Jew who went to the local community college, he studied under Gamaliel. So in the Biblical sense he went to Harvard or it’s equivilant (FU maybe?). I would like to share my thoughts on your comment though, since you did ask for an explaination. First, let me preface and say that I am more of a lurker here, due to my feelings of inadequacies as far as intellectually going up against one of you “real” dopes. I’m **NOT** a debator by nature…but, bibliophage moved this thread while I was drafting my reply, so therefore…I’m here in Great Debates. [sub]Do you hear my knees knocking?[/sub] The rightful consequence of sinning against God is eternal separation from Him. That is just and fair. He created mankind to coexist with him with only one rule. Man…ok…ok…Woman went against this rule (but, if Adam had truly been the man he was meant to be…he would have not allowed her to eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…I mean…he was the one who received the instructions!!) But, men!!! UGH!! Anyway… But, God’s mercifulness came into play and He decided to give us another chance…so in comes Jesus to **Save** the day and us!! Through Jesus’ life, one of the things we see is the importance of reading the Bible, it was through the knowledge of the scriptures, that Jesus was able to “confront” Satan when he tried to tempt Jesus. Without the knowledge of the scripture it is much, much harder to withstand the temptation of doing things that goes against God’s plan for our lives. Through Jesus’ death, we see a man [sub]not dismissing His diety w/ that comment [/sub] who took on himself the sins of mankind…He had done nothing wrong…EVER!! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > \*\*The death as penalty for sin in the Bible refers to the death of your soul, not your body > \*\* Crunchy, I think I agree w/ you in a sense…but, am having trouble with your verbage. Would you also agree, that a spiritual death is eternal separation from God? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fear Itself_ > **So, if the penalty for sin is the death of the soul, how can Jesus’ physical death be considered payment for anybody’s sins? He did not sacrifice his soul, just his body.** Fear Itself, prior to the physical death of Christ on the ultimate altar of sacrifice- the cross, the Jewish sacrificial system as outlined in Leviticus 4:1-35, dictated that a “sin offering” was to be made. This offering was designed to atone for sin that was committed unintentionally. The animal to be offered as a sacrifice varied depending on who it represented and their status. It could be made on an individual or a corporate basis. Jesus, was the unblemished lamb of God, offered on the altar as a “sin offering” for the sins of mankind. The only “requirement” is that we receive that “free gift” and acknowledge His death for what it was. [sub] That’s a little simplistic, there is a little more to it that I would love to share w/ you if you ever wanted to know.[/sub] It was through His **resurrection** though that we know He was who He said He was!! He overcame death…[sub] hey, that could be a whole 'nother debate re: Just what was he doing during those 3 days!![/sub] Ok, I have made this post long enough…sorry!! But, does it answer any of the questions offered in the OP? Or rather does it explain anything?? Angel /:)\ (that’s my head covering if you couldn’t tell…LOL) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/15 "2001-09-10T03:33:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angelnside \* > Romans 6:23 states, **For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.** > > The only “requirement” is that we receive that “free gift” and acknowledge His death for what it was. **Angelinside** ,Aren’t you suggesting God’s love is conditional? You are suggesting that there are requirements on our part. Aren’t you saying that someone who’s been raised in an environment not conducive to accepting Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, say Amerindians prior to Columbus for an easy example, is out of luck? Although your view is very mainstream, I liken the “free gift” in your context not free at all, but similar to all the “free gifts” and “you are a winner” claims on the net that are offered and only by pursuing them do we find the strings attached. The bible says that Jesus is the saviour of {b]all men\*\*, (mission completed) and that we should preach these things. Now that is the good news for **everyone** ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/16 "2001-09-10T04:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > \*\*If you believe in **the God of the bible** and don’t know _an answer_ to this, it seems to me you have not read the bible enough or gone to church enough. > > There are many variations in belief as to what happens, but basically before Jesus, the soul went to hell. The really bad guys went to the bad parts of hell. The not so bad people (like Moses) went to limbo, which wasn’t too bad but wasn’t great either. When Jesus came along and died for our sins it meant that if anyone _believed that Jesus was their savior_ then they would go to heaven and everyone else would go to hell. > > There will be a lot of disagreement on what I just said, but it will get the ball rolling. \*\* I have found that going to church is the worst way to find out what the bible actually says. I mean the bible says not to pray in public for the purpose of having people see you praying. Matthew 6 seemed pretty clear to me that church as we know it is more or less pretty sinful. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/17 "2001-09-10T04:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\ ***Squink** , the Greek word in Rom 6:23 is the plural of _opsonion_, which my book translates as “pay, wages, compensation”. But I’m not a Greek scholar, so I can’t offer a very insightful reading. \*\* So in otherwords it is not saying that you will be punished by death, just that if you don’t sin you are likely to live longer? Which is kind of how I saw “Don’t eat pork”, and “Don’t fornicate” all these years. I mean, if you can get botulism or syphilus from doing it, then I guess the wages are pretty clear on that one. Especially in a time before penicillin and latex condoms. Erek ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/18 "2001-09-10T05:03:29Z")
five yards. Unless it’s a personal foul, in which case it’s fifteen yards. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/19 "2001-09-10T05:09:57Z")
Last one for the night. I never understood this whole obsession with hell. From what I could understand when I read the bible was that it was oblivion. Eternal torment does not jive very well with oblivion. Also, it seems to me that what it is saying is that your ultimate choice at the end is just that, a choice. You are shown ALL the evidence and given the choice to cease existing or to live eternally. Although Oblivion does not jive with the idea of you actually existing at all. If there really is no such thing as time except as a measuring stick, then you’d have to cease to exist period, meaning you never existed to truely be in oblivion right? Then again if you give a form to oblivion then it’s not really oblivion, just like it’s cousin nothing. Now these are the questions you have to ask yourself. Or maybe you should just ask yourself if some political dissident gets nailed to a stick, does it really have anything to do with your eternal soul? Now that leads us to the question of your eternal soul. How do you jive a soul with ashes to ashes dust to dust? I don’t think you really can, I don’t think there is such thing as an eternal soul past the sum of your actions and experiences and how it affects the cosmos, much like the butterfly that flapped it’s wings and wiped out southern florida. In conclusion, religious zealots are full of shit. There really isn’t anything that another can teach you as your path is your own. You can learn from others, but they can’t really teach you. If I believe that then why am I writing this? Well according to the bible, as a sinner, I am headed for oblivion and as I don’t believe in time as other than a measuring stick, I don’t actually exist, so I’m not really trying to convince anyone of anything. \ Is that your final answer? \ ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-penalty-for-sin-is/80478/20 "2001-09-10T19:43:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > From what I could understand when I read the bible was that it was oblivion. Eternal torment does not jive very well with oblivion. Here is the meaning of oblivion: [http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary](http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) This is “oblivion” in the Thesaurus: [http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus](http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus) Isn’t it odd that oblivion comes out closer to heaven than it does to hell? > [@](#): > > Also, it seems to me that what it is saying is that your ultimate choice at the end is just that, a choice. You are shown ALL the evidence and given the choice to cease existing or to live eternally. Although Oblivion does not jive with the idea of you actually existing at all. But they don’t say that you get the choice at the end. You must make the choice **now**. Since one of the words for _oblivion_ was **nirvana** which is another word for **heaven** I believe you have gone down the wrong road. Here are two sites that may help you understand what is meant by Hell: [http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/s/sheol.html](http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/s/sheol.html) [http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/sheol.htm](http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/sheol.htm) > [@](#): > > If there really is no such thing as time except as a measuring stick, then you’d have to cease to exist period, meaning you never existed to truely be in oblivion right? Then again if you give a form to oblivion then it’s not really oblivion, just like it’s cousin nothing. **Time is nothing more than a measuring stick**? Boy, Einstein sure spent a lot of that measurement on the concept of time and Hawkins wrote a whole book on it. > [@](#): > > Now these are the questions you have to ask yourself. Or maybe you should just ask yourself if some political dissident gets nailed to a stick, does it really have anything to do with your eternal soul? Did you think that up all by yourself? > [@](#): > > Now that leads us to the question of your eternal soul. How do you jive a soul with ashes to ashes dust to dust? I don’t think you really can, I don’t think there is such thing as an eternal soul past the sum of your actions and experiences and how it affects the cosmos, much like the butterfly that flapped it’s wings and wiped out southern florida. It was getting late wasn’t it? > [@](#): > > In conclusion, religious zealots are full of shit. There really isn’t anything that another can teach you as your path is your own. You can learn from others, but they can’t really teach you. If I believe that then why am I writing this? You’re right, but it would help if you understood what _they_ are saying. If you decide you already know what _they_ are saying then you are in your own little world. > [@](#): > > Well according to the bible, as a sinner, I am headed for oblivion and as I don’t believe in time as other than a measuring stick, I don’t actually exist, so I’m not really trying to convince anyone of anything. It is quite possible that you are in **Oblivion** right now.