# The Persian Empire - were they really such bad guys? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117 "2011-07-23T23:00:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/41 "2011-07-25T09:06:19Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And what magnificent works of literature, philosophy, art and science those small poor, squalid, bickering microstates enriched mankind with. A single book by Aristophanes, Aristotle or Epicurus is worth more than all the unfathomable riches and pomp of the royal court and city of the King of Kings, which in any case is all but dust now…etc etc And if Alexander had died at Gaugamela we would now all be speaking Farsi and lauding what wonderful poetry was produced in that era just after the conquest of italy. What magnificent jewelry of that period displayed in the Royal museums How oil painting took such a brilliant flight under Artaxerxes the 15th etc.. etc.. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/42 "2011-07-25T10:10:21Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The Greek Byzantine sure does get little mention around here. No, fair dos, they had a lot to do with it too. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/43 "2011-07-25T10:22:10Z")
> [@Premislaus](#): > > Why, only thing they did was to create the Western philosophy, science and art. > > I agree about the Persians thought. Please don’t take your history lessons from movies like 300 or ideological hacks like Victor Davis Hanson. I’m pretty certain clairobscur, as a Frenchman coming out of the French educational system hasn’t taken any such lessons at all. In fact it rather strikes me as just about as bad history to say that the Greeks created W. science and art as to derive history lessons from that film. As Dibble says, > [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, after it got distilled through the Arabs or else buried for 2500 years, sure… Classicism of the Rennaissance and 19th century served a purpose but is Romantic bollocks in large part. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Then the world would be stifled by an Oriental despotism with no democracy and no hope for scientific progress. Most of Eurasia would resemble perhaps Imperial China in it being a bureaucratic, authoritarian (albeit benign) state. Unlikely, since one of the many despotic states in Europe managed to do so despite best efforts. Geography, not dead Greeks who precious few were aware of over much of European history, saved Europe from being China. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Who knows? I don’t think you can say with certainty what would have developed in the 2500 years. Quite. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Why? We developed modern democracy in spite of centuries of rule by \*Occidental \*despotism. Quite. Quite, I find it personally hard to credit Greek democracy with having anything much to do with democratic developments (other than serving as a romantic argumentative cornerstone). Roman republican and imperial models had far more real impact, but the democracy that grew up in England would have done so - presuming the same flow of history, without supposed Greeks around. Even if the Persians won, I don’t see why a Alexander of Macedon - a despot - would not have emerged. And Greek learning etc. spread well enough under the despotic imperial rule of the successors to Alex, so this romanticism about free (tiny elite) Greeks seems pretty much that, romanticism. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/44 "2011-07-25T10:58:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Since we know that both [helots](http://www.jstor.org/pss/4436459) and [penestae](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penestae) fought at [Plataea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plataea), there we have an excellent example of a presumably largely free Persian army losing to a certainly partially “unfree” Greek army :D. And as noted Cyrus seems to have no particular difficulty conquering Greek Ionia. The point isn’t that Greek freedom was perfect, but that it was so much better than anything the world had yet witnessed. Still in many ways superior to much of the world today. In Athens many men were free, in Persia only one man was free. But the main thing about Plataea when it comes to freedom is location, location, location. 2000 miles from Persepolis, 200 miles from Athens. Who has most grounds to argue that he is fighting for his home and freedom, the Persian mercenary in foreign territory 2000 miles from home, or the Athenian citizen standing in his backyard? > [@Latro](#): > > For all you who are touting how Greek (“Western”) culture and freedom defeated Oriental despotism. You would also do well to realise that it wasn’t Greece that conquered Persia. > Alexander was Macedonian, not exactly Greek, and very much a despot. > His soldiers weren’t in it for “freedom” they were fighting for their King, and loot of course. Greek freedom was defended at Marathon, Salamis, Plataea, and of course Thermopylae. Alexander was just another despotic conqueror busy sending his armies hither and thither. Like so many others before and after him, Saragon, Ramses, Cyrus, Xerxes, Hamilcar, Hannibal, Pompey, Caesar, and so on and so forth. Fortunately he died young as he was becoming increasingly more inspired by Oriental and Persian autocratic thought. > [@Latro](#): > > And if Alexander had died at Gaugamela we would now all be speaking Farsi and lauding what wonderful poetry was produced in that era just after the conquest of italy. What magnificent jewelry of that period displayed in the Royal museums > How oil painting took such a brilliant flight under Artaxerxes the 15th etc.. etc.. Doubt it. They already had had plenty of time to show such skills if they had had them. They didn’t. It should be strange if they had suddenly completely changed their ways. But I don’t engage in futile speculations about alternative history. The Persians must be judged on what they accomplished, not what they could have done in this or that imaginary world. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/45 "2011-07-25T11:44:56Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The point isn’t that Greek freedom was perfect, but that it was so much better than anything the world had yet witnessed. Still in many ways superior to much of the world today. In Athens many men were free, in Persia only one man was free. But the main thing about Plataea when it comes to freedom is location, location, location. 2000 miles from Persepolis, 200 miles from Athens. Who has most grounds to argue that he is fighting for his home and freedom, the Persian mercenary in foreign territory 2000 miles from home, or the Athenian citizen standing in his backyard? Again you are overstating your “Freedom” hang-up. Yes it plays a role, but to much lesser extent than you seem to argue. “Persian mercenary”, uh hu. A major part of the Persian army weren’t mercenairies. The Immortals weren’t commited? . Plus the best mercenairies available were Greeks. But any way, if fighting for freedom is such a huge factor, why did the Celts lose to the Romans, or the Spanish? I think the hoplite style of warfare is far, far more important in the equation. And the persians realised this. Besides, as **Tamerlane** stated, the enormous numbers of greek mercenairies, the institution of the Kardakes corps seems to have been an attempt at creating a native Persian hoplite force. > [@](#): > > Greek freedom was defended at Marathon, Salamis, Plataea, and of course Thermopylae. Alexander was just another despotic conqueror busy sending his armies hither and thither. Like so many others before and after him, Saragon, Ramses, Cyrus, Xerxes, Hamilcar, Hannibal, Pompey, Caesar, and so on and so forth. Fortunately he died young as he was becoming increasingly more inspired by Oriental and Persian autocratic thought. I consider Salamis the most important victory. For all the superiority of the hoplite and, if you must, fighting on home-turf, numerical superiority would have done the Greeks in. Salamis bought Greece time. Time only to be conquered by an even more effective despot with a more effective new-style army. But I think that without Phillip and Alexander’s conquest, the Persians would eventually have tried again. > [@](#): > > Doubt it. They already had had plenty of time to show such skills if they had had them. They didn’t. We don’t _know_ about them. Persepolis was destroyed. Who knows what mighty works of literature there were. Do you really think only the Greeks had mathematics? How do you think the pyramids were built, without the Greeks? ---
**Author:** ![Premislaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f0a364/32.png) [@Premislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Premislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/46 "2011-07-25T12:13:50Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I’m pretty certain clairobscur, as a Frenchman coming out of the French educational system hasn’t taken any such lessons at all. I’m pretty certain I wasn’t talking about clairobscur. > [@](#): > > In fact it rather strikes me as just about as bad history to say that the Greeks created W. science and art as to derive history lessons from that film. I guess I will now tear down my history degree out of shame 😕 ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/47 "2011-07-25T12:28:02Z")
> [@Premislaus](#): > > I’m pretty certain I wasn’t talking about clairobscur. > / Queer, you were replying directly to him, to whom were you addressing yourself if not him? The Vague Non Person who never made any statements about history based on a film? > [@Latro](#): > > Again you are overstating your “Freedom” hang-up. > Yes it plays a role, but to much lesser extent than you seem to argue. > “Persian mercenary”, uh hu. A major part of the Persian army weren’t mercenairies. … But any way, if fighting for freedom is such a huge factor, why did the Celts lose to the Romans, or the Spanish? … We don’t _know_ about them. Persepolis was destroyed. Who knows what mighty works of literature there were. > Do you really think only the Greeks had mathematics? > How do you think the pyramids were built, without the Greeks? I quite agree, but let us think rather a bit farther. Hellenism flourished quite fine under the perfectly “oriental despotic” rule of the Seleucids and Ptolomies, as well as the far-from democratic rule of the Romans. Given the Persian track record, other than out-dated 19th century Romanticism, is there any particular reason to think the same was not possible under the Persians or that given the Persians of the time were already starting to copy the Greeks, that the cultures would not have fused - rather as they did anyway under the Seleucids? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/48 "2011-07-25T13:51:12Z")
The Persians were less harsh than other conquerors, permitting local religions to remain, and often limited autonomy. The Persian Empire was a model of cultural diversity – it’s been argued that one reason Persian expeditions against Greece were so large was so they could include national contingents from all the subject peoples as a show of the size and diversity of the Empire. > [@Premislaus](#): > > Please don’t take your history lessons from movies like 300 or ideological hacks like Victor Davis Hanson. IMHO, I agree Hanson views his history through ideologically-tinted glasses. I’m unfamiliar with his take on Persia – I’ve only read one-and-a-half of his books so far – but he _does_ make a supportable argument in _The Soul of Battle_ that Spartan helot slavery was qualitatively different than other Greek slavery. The Greeks believed one could become a slave through misfortune or defeat, but that no Greek was _born_ a slave inherently. The glaring exception was the Spartan enslavement of the Helots, Laconian and Messenian Greeks they conquered and forced into a hereditary status as property of the state. Because helots were state property, not that of individual Spartans, it was against the law to free them. This permanent subjugation of some Greeks as a people was repugnant to the other Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/49 "2011-07-25T16:09:23Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > In Athens many men were free, in Persia only one man was free. You know, you won’t hear a whisper of dissent from me on the impact of Greek philosophy, science and art. But you are stretching a bit here. I could just as easily argue in rebuttal that in Perseopolis most men were free and in Athens most men were unfree. Your argument basically comes down to Athenian _citizens_ having more inherent equality than subjects of the Persian Shah. And I’d agree, subject to some significant qualifiers - for example Athenian society was plutocratic and it is certainly true that some citizens were much more equal than others. However you then lightly brush over the fact that most Athenians were not citizens and unfree. Whereas Persia may have been a feudal despotism, but in the core of the state _actual_ unfree subjects were rare\*. So you can then play the balancing game. Is feudal Persia with its relatively small number of unfree was people more or less oppressive than democratic Athens with its gigantic underclass of slaves. Personally I’m not going to make the argument that one was vastly superior. They were BOTH fucked in their own way and broadly admirable in others. But it IS silly to argue that the Greeks triumphed because they were more “free”, when this is in fact patently untrue for many definitions of free. Leadership, geography, tactics and military organization all played a role. Moral superiority did not. > [@](#): > > But the main thing about Plataea when it comes to freedom is location, location, location. 2000 miles from Persepolis, 200 miles from Athens. Who has most grounds to argue that he is fighting for his home and freedom, the Persian mercenary in foreign territory 2000 miles from home, or the Athenian citizen standing in his backyard? Plataea was 8 miles from Thebes, a Persian ally. Guess Mardonius should have won after all :D. Why does everybody always forget that many of those freedom-loving Greeks ( Boetians like the Thebans, Locrians, Thessalians ) fought _for_ and with the Persians? > [@Sailboat](#): > > The glaring exception was the Spartan enslavement of the Helots, Laconian and Messenian Greeks they conquered and forced into a hereditary status as property of the state. Because helots were state property, not that of individual Spartans, it was against the law to free them. This permanent subjugation of some Greeks as a people was repugnant to the other Greeks. The above-mentioned penestae are usually considered broadly similar to the helots. There were far fewer of them per capita and they enjoyed a bit more freedom in their day-to-day life. But they still seemed to have been a hereditary serf class. - A counter-rebuttal that in some important corners of the Persian empire ( like Babylonia ) slavery was common enough is also worth pointing out. But that also speaks to the decentralized nature of Persian rule - as noted they didn’t tend to impose their own cultural standards on subject peoples. Rather like the early Mongols in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/50 "2011-07-25T16:27:23Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > You know, you won’t hear a whisper of dissent from me on the impact of Greek philosophy, science and art. But you are stretching a bit here. I could just as easily argue in rebuttal that in Perseopolis most men were free and in Athens most men were unfree. > > Your argument basically comes down to Athenian _citizens_ having more inherent equality than subjects of the Persian Shah. And I’d agree, subject to some significant qualifiers - for example Athenian society was plutocratic and it is certainly true that some citizens were much more equal than others. However you then lightly brush over the fact that most Athenians were not citizens and unfree. Whereas Persia may have been a feudal despotism, but in the core of the state _actual_ unfree subjects were rare\*. > > So you can then play the balancing game. Is feudal Persia with its relatively small number of unfree was people more or less oppressive than democratic Athens with its gigantic underclass of slaves. Personally I’m not going to make the argument that one was vastly superior. They were BOTH fucked in their own way and broadly admirable in others. > > But it IS silly to argue that the Greeks triumphed because they were more “free”, when this is in fact patently untrue for many definitions of free. Leadership, geography, tactics and military organization all played a role. Moral superiority did not. I think the argument is not about morals, but about morale: that the “free, reasonably wealthy, decision-making citizen” class of Greece roughly corresponded to their heavy infantry - the hoplite - thus giving the Greeks an edge in purely _military_ terms, in that the Greek infantry was more willing to fight and not break, because they had a stake in the states they were fighting for. Certainly, places like Athens had lots of slaves and others like metics who were not citizens (not to speak of women), and so the actual number of the truly “free” was outnumbered by the not-free - but these not-free folks were not on the front lines of battle, except in small numbers as auxilliaries. The argument goes that making your free class into soldiers makes them more formidable _as_ soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/51 "2011-07-25T16:41:22Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Why does everybody always forget that many of those freedom-loving Greeks ( Boetians like the Thebans, Locrians, Thessalians ) fought _for_ and with the Persians? If that’s a serious question, I think it’s because that fact doesn’t fit the narrative that’s developed around the Persian war of Greek vs Persian, West vs East, occidental democracy vs oriental despotism. Also, secondarily, for a lot of people, ancient Greece means ancient Athens (or Sparta, which is “not Athens”), and polities that aren’t Athens or Sparta tend to get ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/52 "2011-07-25T17:10:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think the argument is not about morals, but about morale: that the “free, reasonably wealthy, decision-making citizen” class of Greece roughly corresponded to their heavy infantry - the hoplite - thus giving the Greeks an edge in purely _military_ terms, in that the Greek infantry was more willing to fight and not break, because they had a stake in the states they were fighting for. I’d accept that argument up to a point. But consider the following: 1.) Again Persia had no problem handling the wealthier half of the Greek world ( i.e. Asian Greece ). 2.) Even putting aside mercenaries, Persia had plenty of free Greek troops fighting for them as allies as above. Thebes was an old enemy of Athens and was definitely fighting to readjust the borders of Boetia ( and stave off the inevitable reprisals if they lost ). 3.) As noted at Plataea there were definitely unfree Greek soldiers on the field. Nor were all the Greeks citizens of participatory democracies ( though granted most of the poleis governments were at least oligarchies, even technically diarchic Sparta ). So a morale argument holds some water - I don’t dismiss it out of hand. But I have hard time considering it decisive in light of the above. Superior morale certainly didn’t save the Greeks from the despotic Philip of Macedon ;). > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If that’s a serious question, I think it’s because that fact doesn’t fit the narrative that’s developed around the Persian war of Greek vs Persian, West vs East, occidental democracy vs oriental despotism. Also, secondarily, for a lot of people, ancient Greece means ancient Athens (or Sparta, which is “not Athens”), and polities that aren’t Athens or Sparta tend to get ignored. Nah, it was rhetorical. But I fully agree with your points :). ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/53 "2011-07-25T17:40:49Z")
The Greek Hoplite was better equipped than the average Persian. The Persian was armed with a spear, wicker armor and a wicker shield. The Hoplite had a spear that was longer, wore metal armor and had a much tougher shield. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/54 "2011-07-26T01:09:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why? We developed modern democracy in spite of centuries of rule by \*Occidental \*despotism. Due to the legacy of Athens and later on Republican Rome. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/55 "2011-07-26T02:35:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Due to the legacy of Athens and later on Republican Rome. Actually, I believe SS Africa has **some** native traditions of democracy. I read once that Botswana had – regular public meetings at which the chief had to account for his actions – which was given as the reason why Botswana made a fairly easy transition to democracy post-independence (bright green on the [Democracy Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_index) map, pretty good by African standards north or south). ---
**Author:** ![saabn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@saabn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saabn)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/56 "2011-07-26T04:46:02Z")
I’m gonna have to go against the majority of this board and say that yes, the Persians were the bad guys. I am however, somewhat biased on the subject. I’m Lebanese, and the Persians ruled Lebanon very opressively (although not as opressively as the Greeks durring their brief ruling period before Alexander’s death. I personally dislike most major empires throughout history, because the way I see it, they gained land and kept it by brutality. History is written by the winners, not by the ones who showed mercy. Because of my country’s strategic location on the Mediteranean, nearly every major empire has ruled us, from the Sumerians to the Ottomans some more opressively than others. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/57 "2011-07-26T05:20:05Z")
> [@saabn](#): > > (although not as opressively as the Greeks durring their brief ruling period before Alexander’s death. I wouldn’t say the Greeks ruled what’s now Lebanon just “briefly”. Alexander the Great took it from Persia, and then the Seleucids ruled it for about 240 years. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/58 "2011-07-26T22:44:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, I believe SS Africa has **some** native traditions of democracy. I read once that Botswana had – regular public meetings at which the chief had to account for his actions – which was given as the reason why Botswana made a fairly easy transition to democracy post-independence (bright green on the [Democracy Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_index) map, pretty good by African standards north or south). Interesting. There were some other systems like that too such as most famously the Iroquois. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/59 "2011-07-26T23:59:43Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The Greek Hoplite was better equipped than the average Persian. The Persian was armed with a spear, wicker armor and a wicker shield. The Hoplite had a spear that was longer, wore metal armor and had a much tougher shield. This probably helped, but Phillip/Alexander’s great innovation was the concept of the (semi)standing army. The Macedonian army spent a significant amount of time training together. Most armies at the time (including the Persian army) were tribal levies called together for this or that fight and then disbanded. The professionalism of the Macedonians was probably their greatest strength. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117/60 "2011-07-27T00:11:03Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > This probably helped, but Phillip/Alexander’s great innovation was the concept of the (semi)standing army. The Macedonian army spent a significant amount of time training together. Most armies at the time (including the Persian army) were tribal levies called together for this or that fight and then disbanded. The professionalism of the Macedonians was probably their greatest strength. My knowledge of Greece pretty much ends with the Spartan victory over Athens. So my comment about the Hoplites applies to pre-Macedonian dominance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persian-empire-were-they-really-such-bad-guys/590117.md?page=4)