# The Persistance of Clowns **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 16, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580 "2021-10-16T02:12:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/1 "2021-10-16T02:12:47Z")
Reading a book on Roman history that mentions ancient clowns. It talks about performers from Etruria using stock characters with coloured patches, long expansive trousers, large sleeved doublets familiar to any youth and mentions that clowns that appear in frescoes in Pompeii look like exact likenesses of modern clowns. **Is there any other profession that could say the same? Is it true?** ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/2 "2021-10-16T02:53:28Z")
I’ve heard that there’s an older profession. I’d be interested in seeing those frescoes. In a quick Google search I did not find any ancient frescoes depicting clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/3 "2021-10-16T02:56:14Z")
If clowns did not exist, it would be necessary to invent them. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/4 "2021-10-16T03:10:54Z")
There are older professions than clowns, but presumably likenesses have changed over millennia. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/5 "2021-10-16T03:40:24Z")
The book, alas has no photos. It quoted an A.W. Schlegel _Lectures on Dramatic Art and Literature_. “An exact likeness of Punchinello, or Punch, has been found on the frescoes of Pompeii”. Since the book was written in 1944, the quote is older still. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/6 "2021-10-16T05:40:53Z")
Dali’s _Persistence of Clowns_ features melting seltzer bottles. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/7 "2021-10-16T12:52:17Z")
Yes, and perhaps a flower boutonnière bent over a tree branch. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/8 "2021-10-16T13:17:54Z")
Every community has a clown. Sometimes though it is the clown who doesn’t know it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/9 "2021-10-16T13:39:48Z")
Sometimes he is their representative. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/10 "2021-10-16T14:39:16Z")
Is this clown bothering you? ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/11 "2021-10-16T15:06:09Z")
Took my then 10 year old twin grand daughters to a circus. One of them is afraid of clowns but I promised her none would come near her. A clown came near us after we sat down, I told him my grand daughter was afraid of clowns. He said he knew what to do. He came back a few minutes later with a gal carrying a case of makeup. The gal made up my grand daughters with makeup and showed them what they looked like as a clowns. She then took them to the center ring where they were joined by all the other clowns. She had a blast with them, they played tricks on other guests and learned how to make balloon animals. She enjoyed the rest of the circus. While walking out after the show, she told me she was still afraid of clowns. But just the scary ones. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/12 "2021-10-16T15:13:00Z")
^ This belongs over in the “What made you smile today” thread. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/13 "2021-10-16T15:30:36Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > she told me she was still afraid of clowns. There are no innocent clowns.\* \*(Posted by someone on the SDMB a LONG time ago) ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/14 "2021-10-16T15:40:15Z")
Here are some ancient Greek ‘clowns’, actually performers in an ancient Greek comedy play. They would have been wearing tragicomic masks rather than make-up, so they would have looked significantly different to modern clowns. [![](https://www.clownbluey.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/clown-history/ancient_greek_clowns.jpg) ](https://www.clownbluey.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/clown-history/ancient_greek_clowns.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/15 "2021-10-16T16:34:31Z")
More ancient Greek clowns: [http://www.worldhistory.biz/uploads/posts/2015-09/625w-7.jpg](http://www.worldhistory.biz/uploads/posts/2015-09/625w-7.jpg)   And some ancient Roman ones: [![](https://i.ibb.co/YD0qn0w/amphitryo.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/YD0qn0w/amphitryo.jpg) [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/33/02/1533022a0b2854f150514529f57f9929.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/33/02/1533022a0b2854f150514529f57f9929.jpg) [![](https://i.ibb.co/JQbzLL1/slaveonaltar.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/JQbzLL1/slaveonaltar.jpg) [![](https://i.ibb.co/1X26zdL/dossenusstatuette.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/1X26zdL/dossenusstatuette.jpg) This last one is presumably the one that your book mentions as resembling Pulcinella from the commedia dell’arte, but it’s a statuette, not a fresco. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/16 "2021-10-16T16:47:26Z")
Thank you to everyone who posted pictures. How interesting! Sadly, classical artistic depictions of Batman, IT professionals, Trump and musicians dressed like Josie and the Pussycats have not survived. However, they were hinted at in the missing books of Tacitus - or so I have heard. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/17 "2021-10-16T16:53:00Z")
No wonder Greek civilization and the Roman Empire went into severe declines - their children were permanently traumatized by clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-persistance-of-clowns/952580/18 "2021-10-16T17:33:38Z")
The Atellan Farce, also known as the Oscan Games, were masked improvised farces in Ancient Rome. > [@](#): > > The Oscan athletic games were very popular, and usually preceded by longer pantomime plays. One of the stock characters was Maccus, “believed derived from either the Greek term makkoan, meaning ‘to be stupid’ or the Greek prefix mac-, that denotes greed”. > [@](#): > > Maccus was a most popular clown and the leading character in many Atellan plays including The Fool, as a hunchback with a beak nose. > **[Roman Maccus Comedy Mask](https://www.worldhistory.org/image/7071/roman-maccus-comedy-mask/)** > > A terracotta mask of the Maccus type used in Roman farce theatre. Tarentum, southern Italy. 2nd-1st century BCE. (National Archaeological Museum of Taranto, Italy) > **[Roman Comedy Theatre Mask](https://www.worldhistory.org/image/7070/roman-comedy-theatre-mask/)** > > A terracotta comedy theatre mask from Roman Tarentum, southern Italy. 2nd-1st century BCE. (National Archaeological Museum of Taranto, Italy) Wikipedia mentions possible connections with later clown-types: > [@](#): > > The characters may have connections to similar roles in Commedia dell’arte and Punch and Judy. Both Atellan Farce and Commedia were improvised masked comedies. Stock characters in Atellan Farce are speculated as the beginnings of the Commedia dell’arte stock characters. For example, theorized character progressions include: > > Pappus → Pantalone > Maccus+Buccus → Pulcinella > Manducus → il Capitano > > However, these connections remain speculative and are contested in ongoing research. There are similarities between Punch and the Commedia dell’arte character Pulcinella, however, there is no consensus that Punch’s derivation can be traced back to Pulcinella. > **[Atellan Farce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atellan_Farce)** > > The Atellan Farce (Latin: Atellanae Fabulae or Fabulae Atellanae, "favola atellana"; Atellanicum exhodium, "Atella comedies"), also known as the Oscan Games (Latin: ludi Osci, "Oscan plays"), were masked improvised farces in Ancient Rome. The Oscan athletic games were very popular, and usually preceded by longer pantomime plays. The origin of the Atellan Farce is uncertain, but the farces are similar to other forms of ancient theatre such as the South Italian Phlyakes, the plays o The Atellan Fa...