# The Phrase: "In Dutch" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015 "2012-08-09T23:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/1 "2012-08-09T23:49:55Z")
At work today Jon asked Fred to put some extra tables into the database. Fred agreed, but then Jon said - should I channel this request through your boss? I don’t want to get you _in Dutch_ with him. From the context, I guess it means, _I don’t want to get you in trouble._ Is this a common phrase? Can anyone tell me its history? I am in PA and wondered if this was a regional thing - because we are close to Pennsylvania Dutch country. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/2 "2012-08-10T00:02:51Z")
Yes, “in Dutch” means in trouble. I wouldn’t call it especially common … more like something you’d hear in a “Thin Man” novel. I believe it’s of British origin though, and it’s just one of the many slurs involving the French and Dutch, two of Britain’s main rivals. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/3 "2012-08-10T00:13:20Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > Yes, “in Dutch” means in trouble. I wouldn’t call it especially common … more like something you’d hear in a “Thin Man” novel. I believe it’s of British origin though, and it’s just one of the many slurs involving the French and Dutch, two of Britain’s main rivals. I’m not quite clear about the origin of “In Dutch” but yeah, a lot of phrases in English use the word “Dutch” to mean “not quite the real thing”: For example, a “Dutch Uncle” is not really your uncle, “Dutch love” is lust, “Dutch treat” isn’t a treat at all, etc. ---
**Author:** ![AttaboyMike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@AttaboyMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AttaboyMike)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/4 "2012-08-10T00:14:09Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I’m not quite clear about the origin of “In Dutch” but yeah, a lot of phrases in English use the word “Dutch” to mean “not quite the real thing”: > > For example, a “Dutch Uncle” is not really your uncle, “Dutch love” is lust, “Dutch treat” isn’t a treat at all, etc. Not to mention the fact that one never wants to accept food that’s been prepared in a Dutch oven… ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/5 "2012-08-10T00:17:32Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > Yes, “in Dutch” means in trouble. I wouldn’t call it especially common … more like something you’d hear in a “Thin Man” novel. I believe it’s of British origin though, and it’s just one of the many slurs involving the French and Dutch, two of Britain’s main rivals. This doesn’t mean you’re wrong but… The part of the story I didn’t type out due to laziness was that I was relaying the story to a British friend (there is much more to the story, but none of it was relevant to the question) and he asked me the origin of the phrase, claiming to never have heard it. I told him I’d ask here, since I figure someone would know. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/6 "2012-08-10T00:24:29Z")
> [@AttaboyMike](#): > > Not to mention the fact that one never wants to accept food that’s been prepared in a Dutch oven… One of these [Dutch oven - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_oven) ? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/7 "2012-08-10T00:31:25Z")
Just for some added data - here’s what Google has in all books published from 1800-2008 for the phrase “I’m in dutch” - [Google Ngram Viewer](http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=I+%27+m+in+dutch&year_start=1800&year_end=2010&corpus=0&smoothing=3) There’s a strong peak in the 1940s (since this was when my parents were teenagers, that might explain why I know the phrase - I heard it from them) ---
**Author:** ![TheChileanBlob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thechileanblob/32/435_2.png) [@TheChileanBlob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheChileanBlob)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/8 "2012-08-10T00:32:31Z")
No, one of [these](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dutch+oven). ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/9 "2012-08-10T00:45:37Z")
Specifically, the term “in Dutch” to mean in trouble is almost certainly U.S. in origin. Around the first decade of the 20th Century. > [@OED](#): > > . Slang phrases (orig. U.S.): (a) in Dutch, in disfavour, disgrace, or trouble; (b) to do a (or the) Dutch (act) , to desert, escape, run away; also, to commit suicide.1904 H. Hapgood Autobiogr. Thief vi. 112 A week later Dal was found dead in his cell, and I believe he did the Dutch act (suicide). > 1909 J. R. Ware Passing Eng. 120/2 We did a dutch with everything—even down to the coalhammer. > 1912 A. H. Lewis Apaches of N.Y. iv. 70, I don’t want to put you in Dutch with your fleet. > 1948 M. Allingham More Work for Undertaker xxv. 286 He’ll be in dutch if there’s nothing to show at the end of it. > 1953 P. Frankau Winged Horse ii. iv. 134 Maybe Baron’ll fire me when he knows I’m in Dutch with his family. > 1958 M. A. de Ford in J. Macdonald Lethal Sex (1962) 115 You can’t face it..so you’re doing the Dutch and leaving a confession. > 1959 ‘E. Fenwick’ Long Way Down xx. 155 Scare the poor kid to death, probably—and get her in dutch with her people, too. > 1965 ‘R. L. Pike’ Police Blotter (1966) ii. 37 The day Caper Connelly does the dutch, my guess is it’ll be against somebody else. > 1968 J. Dos Passos Best Times ii. 69 While I plodded around..trying to explain my position and getting myself deeper in Dutch every time I opened my face, I saw marvellous scenes. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/10 "2012-08-10T17:00:13Z")
Good old OED. So it’s of American origin, but derives from British phrases (like Dutch act), which were slurs on the Dutch. I’m giving myself partial credit. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/11 "2012-08-10T20:56:18Z")
I had heard that phrases like that (“Dutch courage” = drunk, Dutch Uncle = not a real uncle ) were based on insulting the enemy during the series of wars between the English and Dutch in the late 1600’s and early 1700’s. The First Anglo-Dutch War, 1652–1654 The Second Anglo-Dutch War, 1665–1667 The Third Anglo-Dutch War, 1672–1674 The Fourth Anglo-Dutch War, 1780–1784 At the time they were intense trading rivals around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Rasa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rasa/32/3578_2.png) [@Rasa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rasa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/12 "2012-08-10T21:20:38Z")
Oh, this is funny, though it contributes nothing to the thread… I was just thinking of this phrase today. My grandma, who died 2 years ago at the age of 93, used it and that’s the only place I heard it. (We’re from Rhode Island and she has Irish roots but her parents were born here in the U.S.) ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/13 "2012-08-10T21:40:35Z")
Thanks! I will pass the info on. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/14 "2012-08-10T22:40:53Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > There’s a strong peak in the 1940s (since this was when my parents were teenagers, that might explain why I know the phrase - I heard it from them) Mine too (in New York City). I heard it from people in my parents’ and grandparents’ generation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/15 "2012-08-10T22:43:18Z")
Never heard this phrase in my life. American, born in the 1950s. Grew up in N.E., but live in CA now. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/16 "2012-08-10T22:47:06Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Specifically, the term “in Dutch” to mean in trouble is almost certainly U.S. in origin. Around the first decade of the 20th Century. Thanks Samclem ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/17 "2012-08-11T00:23:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Never heard this phrase in my life. American, born in the 1950s. Grew up in N.E., but live in CA now. Just a guess. I’m born in 1944, lived in Virginia until 1971, then Ohio until now. I think it’s more of a generational thing rather than location. It was probably dying out between the generation when I was born and when you were. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/18 "2012-08-11T05:17:02Z")
National Lampoon published a series of articles lampooning extremist typewritten newsletters, all from 'Americans United to Beat The Dutch`. They trotted out all the usual - Dutch Uncle, Dutch Courage, the coincidence that Dutch Elm DIsease was first identified when Queen Beatrice assumed the throne (obviously a connection), and the old country classic _Put Your Tulips a Little Closer to the Phone_ must of course be Dutch propaganda. All in all, if there were something bad in the world, the Dutch must be it. Going Dutch - not paying for your date. > **[1973: The Dutch - Threat or Menace?](http://studdblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/1973-dutchthreat-or-menace.html)** > > I was first made aware of the insidious Dutch conspiricy to weaken the morals of good American men, turning them into miserly, chocolate e... ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/19 "2012-08-11T07:23:04Z")
I’m British and I’ve never heard of the OP’s usage, so makes sense that it’s American, albeit with British origins. All the Dutch slurs we throw around seem quite strange from this historical distance. We’ve always retained our rivalry with the French, but our competitiveness with the Dutch is long forgotten – and would come as a surprise to many Brits who fell asleep at the back of history lessons. Thought of another - talking double dutch = talking nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/20 "2012-08-11T15:10:33Z")
Is “Dutch” this and “Dutch” that (in the sense we are discussing here) still in common usage in Britain today? Any Dutch people here on SD? Or at least some people from the Netherlands? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015.md?page=2)