# The Phrase: "In Dutch" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015 "2012-08-09T23:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/41 "2014-04-10T01:46:23Z")
The relationship with the Dutch improved considerably after 1688 because they were Protestant. After Henry VIII turned the country Protestant, The English Reformation. On his death, his eldest daughter turned it Catholic again and burned Protestants. She died and Elizadbeth I turned the country back to Protestantism and survived many plots by revolutionaries supported by the Catholic superpowers. Since then, there has has always a big question mark about whether the latest monarch was going to have Catholic sympathies and a possible threat to national security. Many other countries also experienced this kind of political instability and constitutional crisis. One such problem monarch was James II. He was deposed in the ‘Glorious Revolution’ because of his Catholic sympathies. So England needed a King, one with solid Protestant credentials. The Dutch, a serious business rival, had one in the person of William of Orange. So a deal was done and he was invited over to be King of England as well as The Netherlands and his army helped to put down an uprising by Catholic rebels in Ireland. The English and Dutch have been friends ever since…except for a small war caused by the Dutch support for those famous American Revolutionaries. I daresay that led to another round of name calling. It is amazing how long the archaic use of words remain in a language. I would wager there are many other choice words reserved for the English that linger on in other languages as reminders of conflicts long ago in the past. Or, I’m a Dutchman! ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/42 "2014-04-10T02:26:09Z")
Words can be confusing. The phrase _double dutch_ meaning gibberish is a reference not to the Dutch language but German. Here’s OED, helpful as ever. > [@](#): > > b. double (†high) Dutch : a language that one does not understand, gibberish. > > 1790 C. Dibdin Coll. Songs I. 153 Why ‘twas just all as one as high Dutch. > 1876 C. H. Wall tr. Molière Lovers’ Quarrels ii. vii, in Dram. Wks. I. 116 Though I have said them [sc. prayers] daily now these fifty years, they are still double Dutch to me. > [@](#): > > Dutch > > B. n.1 [Elliptical uses of the adjective.] > > 1. The German language, in any of its forms. Obs. exc. in High Dutch = German (Hoch Deutsch); Low Dutch n. 1 In other words, High Dutch was the German language, Low Dutch the Dutch. (It’s more complex than that but such is the gist.) ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/43 "2014-04-10T02:55:21Z")
“Double Dutch” was always skipping rope; however, a small child unable to pronounce all the letters correctly was called dutchy. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/44 "2014-04-10T14:41:53Z")
I always thought stinginess was the key to a lot of “Dutch” phrases. The English long regarded the Dutch, like Scotsmen, as stern, dour, penny-pinching cheapskates. Hence a “Dutch Treat”- the man is too cheap to pay for his date’s meal. Or “Dutch oven”- the Dutch using a mere pot, being too parsimonious to pay for a real oven. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/45 "2014-04-10T16:30:55Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Explain, please. > > You possibly don’t see the difference because you’re “Dutch.” 😉 > > People of Dutch origins generally haven’t been oppressed in the last 500 years the way that a few minority groups have----I’m speaking of Blacks/African Americans/ and Jews. They haven’t just been “oppressed” as much as killed/indentured/other forms of treatment that you wouldn’t do to an animal. > > Have you ever had to enter a restaurant/bar in the rear, because a sign said "Dutch, use the rear entrance? Ever encounter a sign over a separate drinking fountain that says “Dutch.” Ever seen a real estate deed covenant that says “no Dutch?” > > I doubt that the “Dutch” have ever had to endure what those two minority groups have had to. That’s the difference. IMHO. I’ve had this discussion before. _Someone_’s gotta stand for the Cheap Guy identity in a national joke about cheapness, because jokes about cheapness just have to be made. It’s a drag. “Cheap” jokes are great, like “dumb” jokes. I don’t like “cheap Jew” jokes (I am a Jew) not because of the great general history of abuse of the Jews, to which it would be absurd to complain that jokes about being cheap are a further instantiation. The reason, I believe, is that “cheapness,” is about dealing with money, and \*money itself \* is _deeply_ entwined with that horrible general history. Dealing with money became a “national identity,” in real life, because Christians allowed Jews precious few other opportunities, and lending money, credit, of course, touches almost every single one of us. In analogy, a well-established genre of jokes “who’s the servile one” in which it was “the Black guy” might serve. Not because blacks got fucked over in general and should be exempt, but because, um, servility was intrinsic to their getting fucked over. That genre doesn’t exist, however, as far as I know. But the “big dick Black” does, and is particularly nasty because of a history of fear by whites in America of sexuality of a forbidden or unknown, in real life. Now, two things: 1. Sometimes, as above, people will, to a greater or lesser extent, put a good spin on it: “hey, I wish I was so good with money,” or, similarly, “hey (this is less explicit with guys talking to each other) I kind kind of respect that” to the concept in the joke. 2. They may or may not say (or think–who the hell should have to justify every joke?–) the above because it doesn’t occur to them at all or it doesn’t occur to them that there is any true, real-life deep baggage? And, for better or worse, that’ snot a good thing in isolation as an intelligent person or in society. FWIW, in Israel, and I think in England when Jews are otherwise employed in a joke, they use “cheap Scot” jokes. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/46 "2014-04-10T20:04:04Z")
I remember reading many years ago that a long, bolster-like pillow is called a “Dutch husband.” ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/47 "2014-04-10T21:30:35Z")
I suspect the charge of meaness, or being cheap, was the result of religious and political propaganda suggesting unfair competition on the part of the offending party. In Catholic Christianity and in many other religious cultures (notably Islam) lending money with interest is forbidden. Lending money to a profligate King who was looking for a way to wriggle out of his debts led to orchestrated pogroms and persecution. In Scotland the multitude of Protestant denominations that followed the Reformation survived by collecting money from the parishoners when attending church. This practice invited a prejudice from the state endorsed Protestantism. Charging people to go into the house of God was regarded as a very dubious practice. The word scot is also a work for ‘tax’. So…they weren’t going to get away from this charge scot free. This sectarian rivalry might be the reason why the Swabians of south Germany are also regarded as ‘careful with their money’. As far as the Dutch are concerned, their trading practices as they tried to create an empire in the Far East led to much resentment from the English who were their great rivals. Both countries were in process of creating international business corporations to support their trading networks and doing their best to sabotage each others efforts in the process. Paying the Dutch to bring over an army keep the monarchy Protestant came at a substantial cost must have been a lot to bear. A lot of expressions using Dutch here, they certainly don’t indicate virtue. Sad really, given that we have been on good terms for at least a couple of hundred years now. [http://homepages.cwi.nl/~sjoerd/dutch.html](http://homepages.cwi.nl/~sjoerd/dutch.html) ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/48 "2014-04-11T22:01:28Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > > [@OED](#): > > > > Slang phrases (orig. U.S.): (a) in Dutch, in disfavour, disgrace, or trouble; (b) to do a (or the) Dutch (act) , to desert, escape, run away; also, to commit suicide.1904 H. Hapgood Autobiogr. Thief vi. 112 A week later Dal was found dead in his cell, and I believe he did the Dutch act (suicide). > > 1909 J. R. Ware Passing Eng. 120/2 We did a dutch with everything—even down to the coalhammer. > > 1912 A. H. Lewis Apaches of N.Y. iv. 70, I don’t want to put you in Dutch with your fleet. > > 1948 M. Allingham More Work for Undertaker xxv. 286 He’ll be in dutch if there’s nothing to show at the end of it. > > 1953 P. Frankau Winged Horse ii. iv. 134 Maybe Baron’ll fire me when he knows I’m in Dutch with his family. > > 1958 M. A. de Ford in J. Macdonald Lethal Sex (1962) 115 You can’t face it…so you’re doing the Dutch and leaving a confession. > > 1959 ‘E. Fenwick’ Long Way Down xx. 155 Scare the poor kid to death, probably—and get her in dutch with her people, too. > > 1965 ‘R. L. Pike’ Police Blotter (1966) ii. 37 The day Caper Connelly does the dutch, my guess is it’ll be against somebody else. > > 1968 J. Dos Passos Best Times ii. 69 While I plodded around…trying to explain my position and getting myself deeper in Dutch every time I opened my face, I saw marvellous scenes. This list of literary cites is sadly missing: 1959 Chuck Berry, “Almost Grown”: Yeah, I’m doin’ all right in school/They ain’t said I broke no rule/I ain’t never been in Dutch/I don’t browse around too much. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I doubt it has anything to do with people from the Netherlands. In US slang at least, Dutch commonly meant German, from a mispronunciation of Deutsch. Indeed. I had an uncle who was from Hamburg; everybody (including my aunt) called him by the nickname Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/49 "2014-04-12T20:02:18Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Thought of another - talking double dutch = talking nonsense. Was wondering if anyone was going to mention that one. Then there are “Dutch rubs” (as featured in one Far Side cartoon). ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/50 "2014-04-13T16:54:33Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > I suspect the charge of meaness, or being cheap, was the result of religious and political propaganda suggesting unfair competition on the part of the offending party… > > In Scotland the multitude of Protestant denominations that followed the Reformation survived by collecting money from the parishoners when attending church. This practice invited a prejudice from the state endorsed Protestantism. Charging people to go into the house of God was regarded as a very dubious practice. The word scot is also a work for ‘tax’. So…they weren’t going to get away from this charge scot free… > > As far as the Dutch are concerned, their trading practices as they tried to create an empire in the Far East led to much resentment from the English who were their great rivals. Both countries were in process of creating international business corporations to support their trading networks and doing their best to sabotage each others efforts in the process. Paying the Dutch to bring over an army keep the monarchy Protestant came at a substantial cost must have been a lot to bear. A trivia item concerning mockery from the English, against the people of Scotland and of the Netherlands, about their being “careful with their money” – a venerable English jingle: “The Scots and the Dutch, the Scots and the Dutch – They give too little, and ask too much.” (I first heard this rhyme from a Dutch-born lady who had married a Scotsman and thus become a British citizen.) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/51 "2014-04-13T17:41:09Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > … > > Indeed. I had an uncle who was from Hamburg; everybody (including my aunt) called him by the nickname Dutch. Don’t forget [Dutch Schultz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Schultz) (born Arthur Flegenheimer; August 6, 1901 – October 24, 1935), one of the all-time scumbags. He died as he lived. Didn’t Ronald Reagan go by “Dutch?” How the heck did that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/52 "2014-04-13T19:04:14Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Didn’t Ronald Reagan go by “Dutch?” How the heck did that happen? According to [Wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan) > [@](#): > > As a boy, Reagan’s father nicknamed his son “Dutch”, due to his “fat little Dutchman”-like appearance, and his “Dutchboy” haircut;[7] the nickname stuck with him throughout his youth.[7] ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/53 "2014-04-14T18:24:10Z")
Two ethnic doors you don’t hear much these days: A Dutch door is split at about waist level with a small countertop on the lower half. It was seen in home kitchens and payroll offices. French doors were a pair of doors almost entirely made of small panes of glass. Neither has a bad connotation, as far as I know. In my experience, “talk to him like a Dutch uncle” means taking a young man or woman aside to give her solid financial advice. In that usage, Dutch uncle is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Joe\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Philly\_Joe\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Joe_C)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/54 "2015-10-27T23:48:56Z")
In Pennsylvania we often refer to the Amish as the Pennsylvania Dutch. This is really a misnomer in that the Amish are not Dutch at all, but are German in origin and the word should be Deutsch (German); however Dutch is more suitable to our American ear. “She’ll get you into dutch” is a lyric from an old Leiber & Stoller song, Poison Ivy. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/55 "2015-10-27T23:58:39Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Now the “Frogs” I do find offensive > > It seem okay to say what you want about the Dutch, the Scots and the English Strange - “Frogs” is an almost affectionate term for our French neighbours. They call us rosbifs in much the same spirit. A couple of hundred years ago when we were having one of our periodic disagreements, they called us “Lobsters” an we called them “crapauds” ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/56 "2015-10-28T04:17:52Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > I remember reading many years ago that a long, bolster-like pillow is called a “Dutch husband.” Hello 2014! Anyway, that one is different. A Dutch husband / Dutch Wife in that sense isn’t German: it refers to the Dutch Indies, Indonesia, which really was occupied by the Dutch, and the wicker-work cage you slept with / lay on in the hot humid climate. I think it could with the same justice been called a French husband, from French IndoChina, but it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/57 "2015-10-28T12:12:20Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Strange - “Frogs” is an almost affectionate term for our French neighbours. They call us rosbifs in much the same spirit. > > **A couple of hundred years ago when we were having one of our periodic disagreements, they called us “Lobsters” an we called them “crapauds”** This quite often comes up in Bernard Cornwell’s “Sharpe” novels. The British troops love the satisfyingly scornful sound of the word “crapaud” – meaning in fact toad, not frog. Getting further off-topic from things Dutch: in the British Channel Islands, the two chief islands – Jersey and Guernsey – have a many-centuries-old history of strong rivalry, sometimes shading into outright dislike. Their traditional nicknames – “Crapauds” (toads) for the people of Jersey, and “Ânes” (donkeys) for those of Guernsey, function both as proud badges of identity for one’s own island, and terms of opprobrium for the “others”. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/58 "2015-10-30T03:59:35Z")
> [@Philly\_Joe\_C](#): > > In Pennsylvania we often refer to the Amish as the Pennsylvania Dutch. This is really a misnomer in that the Amish are not Dutch at all, but are German in origin and the word should be Deutsch (German); however Dutch is more suitable to our American ear. > > “She’ll get you into dutch” is a lyric from an old Leiber & Stoller song, Poison Ivy. Also Springsteen “You Can Look But You Better Not Touch” “or you’ll end up in Dutch, boy” ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015/59 "2015-10-30T20:05:03Z")
What expressions are linked with Americans, Brits, or Fremchman in Dutch, is the next question. I spoke briefly to an American woman with Dutch family who said they make Belgian jokes, and mention French fries, but I’m not sure if it’s a “French fries”==“hockey stick” thing to name their national totem (Canada in the example) or when they make “stupid” jokes–the Polack joke–the choose Belgians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-phrase-in-dutch/631015.md?page=2)