# The pi lie (or quantum uncertainty) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323 "2002-12-12T20:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/21 "2002-12-12T21:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > \*\*As the idea that pi is a ratio has not been proven, \*\* It’s _defined_ as a ratio. That doesn’t _need_ to be proven. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/22 "2002-12-12T21:45:53Z")
By 1970, computers will be as tall as skyscrapers. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/23 "2002-12-12T21:49:48Z")
**Justhink** , whatever you’re on, I don’t think it agrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/24 "2002-12-12T21:49:51Z")
It’s defined as a ratio. That doesn’t need to be proven. God is defined as the supreme creator, we don’t give exams on how consistently one demonstrates their belief that this being actually exists in public schools. Yet, with pi, if an individual disagrees with the rationality of this ‘ratio’ - which they have a perfectly ethical right to do IMO, they will be docked merit points in our public education system. -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/25 "2002-12-12T21:52:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > \*\*Wowzers! I was stating that calling pi a ratio was the most critical part of the debate and as such wholly relevant! > > Apologies if my statement appeared derogatory, it was actually a compliment _shrug_ > > -Justhink \*\* Hmm. Just as you’re arbitrarily defining “troll” to be a compliment, mathemeticians have arbitrarily defined “pi” to be a ratio. In fact, for mathemeticians, the concept of pi is meaningless if it’s not a ratio: that’s like arguing over whether squaring a number really means multiplying it by itself. That’s glory for you! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/26 "2002-12-12T21:52:20Z")
Our public schools are administering tests to students and selecting the ones which actually practice the religious ceremonies in accordance with the belief in this _unproven definition to which they are being graded upon_. I think that’s pretty serious. -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/27 "2002-12-12T21:54:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > \*\*Yet, with pi, if an individual disagrees with the rationality of this ‘ratio’ - which they have a perfectly ethical right to do IMO, they will be docked merit points in our public education system. > > -Justhink \*\* This is where you’re wrong. It is highly unethical to question pi. Pi is all-knowing and all-powerful. Well, almost as powerful as squaring numbers, and almost as all-knowing as fractions. Can you possibly misuse the language any more? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/28 "2002-12-12T21:55:01Z")
When come back, bring 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375…(etc.) pies. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/29 "2002-12-12T21:55:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*By 1970, computers will be as tall as skyscrapers. \*\* Where can I get me one of those? I can only fit five IDE devices in my tower and I’m looking to upgrade. Lemme see: average skyscraper=700 ft; average space needed for hd=2 inches; so that’s 700 ft/(1/6 ft)=4200 hard drives. At 80 gigs of memory each, that’s 3.36x10^5 gigs total. What’s that? 336 terabytes? Finally, enough room for my mp3 collection! ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/30 "2002-12-12T21:55:17Z")
Um, **Justhink** , if we put aside for a moment pi’s numerical value, then it’s defined to be the ratio of a circle’s circumference to its diameter. We could use whatever term we wanted to name this ratio, but we happened to pick ‘pi’. It’s the same for all circles. The value for pi was first approximated by finding the perimeters of polygons with n sides… as n approaches infinity, the perimeter approaches a specific value which depends on the width of the polygon. Pi is the ratio of that value to the width of the polygon. ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/31 "2002-12-12T21:55:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmm. Just as you’re arbitrarily defining “troll” to be a compliment, mathemeticians have arbitrarily defined “pi” to be a ratio. In fact, for mathemeticians, the concept of pi is meaningless if it’s not a ratio: that’s like arguing over whether squaring a number really means multiplying it by itself. Just a very poor and needless attempt at humor (the humor was recursive with the OP) and inclusion. Apologies again. -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/32 "2002-12-12T22:00:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Um, Justhink, if we put aside for a moment pi’s numerical value, then it’s defined to be the ratio of a circle’s circumference to its diameter. We could use whatever term we wanted to name this ratio, but we happened to pick ‘pi’. It’s the same for all circles. This is like saying: “Umm… if you just put away the fact that you can’t see God, the definition is that Godf exists, therefor if you don’t follow this rule that God the supreme being laid down, you will be judged as unworthy of human capacity, and underling of spiritual progression and truth. You will be forever marked a heretic of society and our systems of purity will always detect you through the sacred art of geometry.” -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/33 "2002-12-12T22:02:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > **pi cannot be expressed as a ratio** Sure it can. The ratio of a diameter to a circumference is 1:pi I mean 1:pi. Holy crap, he’s right! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/34 "2002-12-12T22:02:27Z")
Forgive me: I’ve done some research, and **pi** isn’t the ratio of a circle’s circumference to its diameter after all. Actually, Pi is my neighbor’s Pomeranian. My apologies for doubting you, **Justhink**. Please point your teachers toward this thread. I’ll set them straight. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/35 "2002-12-12T22:03:05Z")
So you’re still bitter about that “D” in geometry, are you? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/36 "2002-12-12T22:03:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > \*\*Our public schools are administering tests to students and selecting the ones which actually practice the religious ceremonies in accordance with the belief in this _unproven definition to which they are being graded upon_. > > I think that’s pretty serious. > > -Justhink \*\* [Well, this just about sums up **Justhink’s** position](http://lumenthal7ao.tripod.com/ch910306.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/37 "2002-12-12T22:10:46Z")
I understand what he is saying. I think. [bn]Justhink\*\* believes that we need an ontological argument of pi, since the fact that it _works_ over and over again is insufficient proof of its existence as a transcendental number. This is the same sort of navel-gazing and sophomoric questioning of reality that makes us wonder whether we exist or are merely figments in someone else’s dream. Or charging batteries in the Matrix. I believe that **Justhink** would lead a more pleasant life if he adapted his standards of evidence to practical existence. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/38 "2002-12-12T22:17:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty Maximino \* > \*\*Justthink, you shouldn’t make the error that anything in pure mathematics necessarily relates to the real world. You’re welcome to come up with all the new definitions for pi you’d like to, but mathematicians will judge them based on how interesting the results are, and how consistent they are. Based on the axioms that mathematicians start from, and flowing logically from them, pi is no lie. And the axioms claim to describe nothing but themselves. People who try to read too much into them, on the other hand, come up with all sorts of complaints. \*\* What he actually appears to be doing is comparing belief in the transcendental and un-knowable(ultimately it’s not possible to know THE value of π\*\*) virtues of π to belief in the transcendental and un-knowable virtues of God. Either π is a lie as is God, or both are true, but there is inconsistency in believing in the concept of π and denying the concept of God. Still pretty ridiculous though. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/39 "2002-12-12T22:22:39Z")
Maeglin wrote: > [@](#): > > [bn]Justhink\*\* believes that we need an ontological argument of pi, since the fact that it works over and over again is insufficient proof of its existence as a transcendental number. But that’s absurd. Pi is synthetic a priori, and is not even significant except in a single narrow geometry. * * * Mtgman wrote: > [@](#): > > Either ð is a lie as is God, or both are true, but there is inconsistency in believing in the concept of ð and denying the concept of God. Then he’s fallen into a generalization fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323/40 "2002-12-12T22:22:43Z")
Seriously! Try not to let this fall as a joke about my past OCDness regarding transparency! I see the grading based upon the consistency of showing you _believe in and of pi_ as analagous to grading based upon the consistency of showing the belief in and of God for that specific purpose. To address the naming issue again, believers in God are quick to point out that God is actually ‘nameless’ and that the name really doesn’t matter and is just arbitrary. Even though God is nameless, we can define God as existing, and you must engage in very specific behavior to show evidence that you believe in the existence of God or you will be docked social merit points in our education system (which is defined as being truthful now since God cannot be taught in public schools!!). So how about the person who looks at this pi situation and says BS, should they stay silent because you cannot argue with teachers? Should they recieve an ‘f’ for not doing the work - as in their mind there is no work to be done except intentionally confusing one self for a year? Should they be critisized for pointing out the contradictions of this pi, and made to feel ashamed, or coerced into doing the work through peer pressure? Ok, pi is an arbitrary symbol designation for a concept. Pi is defined as unknowable, yet it is defined as a ratio. People will point to the school your in and state that it couldn’t have been built without ‘pi’, you must believe in the power of ‘pi’. Do this work to prove the power of ‘pi’, do it until you know, do it until it reveals itself to you as truth, that something which cannot be a ratio actually is a ratio. “If anything, I had to learn this when I was a kid, there’s nothing wrong with me… you should be able to or have to learn this to. My life isn’t irrelevant, are you calling me irrelevant because I believe in pi, are you telling me I’m insane… how dare you, go to the principal’s office!” To the class: “That kid is so dumb, I feel sorry for them though, because they are so confused… hopefully they will see the way of pi - I mean without pi there wouldn’t be sine’s or cosine’s. The very nerve! That student is lazy and is just trying to get out of doing homework. Let’s all get back to reality now shall we, back to the real world… pull out your worksheets and let’s see how you did. Let’s prepare for our productive lives out in the world and not fall into ruinous lazyness, lethargy and delusion.” -Justhink [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pi-lie-or-quantum-uncertainty/142323.md?page=3)