# The Pick-Up Artist movement is a scam **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 27, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543 "2013-01-27T18:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/221 "2013-01-30T14:31:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do these PUA methods really teach guys not to take no for an answer? Yes, they do, but I have already been through [one thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=495855) where I kept posting quotes from Mystery’s book and other posters (including you) kept saying things like “Well, he doesn’t say that on his TV show” and “I’ve never read that book, but you must be misinterpreting it because you’re a silly emotional woman” and “Common English words have a special, different meaning when Mystery uses them, even though he defines them in his book in a manner that makes it clear he’s using them in the conventional sense.” I’ve been in far nastier threads than that one, but even now, years later, it sticks in my mind as one of the most _frustrating_ threads I’ve ever been in and I’m not in a big hurry to get sucked into another round of “That’s not what it says / Yes, that’s exactly what it says / Well, it doesn’t mean what it says” with someone who hasn’t even read this revolting book. Instead I will just say again that Mystery claims in his book that his method is effective on literally ANY woman. If it’s guaranteed to work, his adherents have no reason to take no for an answer. > [@](#): > > Then you tell me why people hate on PUA. The only reasons I can think of is that most people don’t like being thought of as a “mark” being manipulated. I already told you. I don’t like it when creeps bother me. If you can understand why people hate telemarketers – and we’ve had plenty of threads about THAT – then it’s basically the same thing, only worse because the telemarketer is actually coming up to you in person. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/222 "2013-01-30T14:33:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do these PUA methods really teach guys not to take no for an answer? Because that didn’t seem to be the case in his show. As I remember, he mostly taught guys to watch a woman’s body language. If she expresssed disinterest, then they were to back off. There’s a bit in _The Game_ about “faux-resistance” that often gets taken out of context with people claiming that it is advocating rape (at least one thread on the Dope has made this claim). But if you read the actual page it absolutely does not say that. Basically what it says is that if you’ve got someone back to your place, and you’re all over each other, and then your partner says something like “We shouldn’t be doing this” or “I’ve only just met you” then…stop what you’re doing. Put the TV on or whatever. No sulking, and no mind games. If she wants to leave, call her a taxi. _All it says_ is that later you may consider resuming because she may have just needed that reassurance that she’s in a relaxed environment, you haven’t just turned into a sex monster, and she can stop at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/223 "2013-01-30T14:39:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do these PUA methods really teach guys not to take no for an answer? Because that didn’t seem to be the case in his show. As I remember, he mostly taught guys to watch a woman’s body language. If she expresssed disinterest, then they were to back off. The term I learned from that website is that they are to “next” them. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/224 "2013-01-30T14:59:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I can only surmise if a guy gives off a creepy vibe using PUA techniques, he’s doing it wrong. > I don’t know. Then you tell me why people hate on PUA. The only reasons I can think of is that most people don’t like being thought of as a “mark” being manipulated. It encourages men to lie, pretend to be someone else, insult women, devalue women, devalue men who women like, and takes money from naive men convinced they can manipulate women via cheat codes. There is little if anything to defend about subscribing to PUA techiniques; it’s not alchemy. The guy who behaves like a douche in order to get laid will still be a douche the next day. Like other life achievements, if you aren’t born with talent or money, you work for what you want, you don’t devote all your time to tricking others out of what they have. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/225 "2013-01-30T16:10:05Z")
This is basically a pit thread, it isn’t fighting ignorance. It’s just certain people wanting to vent their ideas of “This is what PUA is all about” and ignore any points to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/226 "2013-01-30T16:20:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > This is basically a pit thread, it isn’t fighting ignorance. > > It’s just certain people wanting to vent their ideas of “This is what PUA is all about” and ignore any points to the contrary. If you have some proof that the PUA community fosters a healthy, positive learning environment that supports equality between the sexes please present it. The links provided, the books referenced and the reality show are all pretty shady and distasteful. The PUA community seems to attract guys already embittered towards men who have natural charisma and embittered towards women. How likely is it that those willing to employ lies, manipulation,and trickery to get women in bed will exhibit personal growth and a positive outlook towards others? Learning to fool and scam others isn’t an admirable skill. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/227 "2013-01-30T16:31:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > If you have some proof that the PUA community fosters a healthy, positive learning environment that supports equality between the sexes please present it. The links provided, the books referenced and the reality show are all pretty shady and distasteful. The PUA community seems to attract guys already embittered towards men who have natural charisma and embittered towards women. How likely is it that those willing to employ lies, manipulation,and trickery to get women in bed will exhibit personal growth and a positive outlook towards others? Learning to fool and scam others isn’t an admirable skill. For about the 50th time: it’s not about fooling anyone, it’s trying to make oneself more attractive to other people. As for my cites they’re the same as yours. e.g. _The Game_ doesn’t say to manipulate anyone, and it’s on you to find where it does: I can’t prove a negative. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/228 "2013-01-30T16:57:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > For about the 50th time: it’s not about fooling anyone, it’s trying to make oneself more attractive to other people. > As for my cites they’re the same as yours. e.g. _The Game_ doesn’t say to manipulate anyone, and it’s on you to find where it does: I can’t prove a negative. I’m on Strauss’ Stylelife Academy forums. From three short threads: women are referred to as numbers on a rating scale, one guy reminds another that women are “just girls”, another warns to kiss a woman before “she moves onto the next bright, shiny object”, Fake enthusiasm about your job and she will beg to suck your dick. Yeah, Syria’s proteges are real princes, huh? [http://www.stylelife.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=105741](http://www.stylelife.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=105741) ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/229 "2013-01-30T17:03:56Z")
The detail described on those forums is so gross I don’t care to dig any further. There is enough wrong with inflating your value, embellishing stories, lying about time constraints, negging, and reducing women to numbers on a scorecard without digging up examples. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/230 "2013-01-30T17:06:35Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m on Strauss’ Stylelife Academy forums. From three short threads: women are referred to as numbers on a rating scale, one guy reminds another that women are “just girls”, another warns to kiss a woman before “she moves onto the next bright, shiny object”, Fake enthusiasm about your job and she will beg to suck your dick. Yeah, Syria’s proteges are real princes, huh? [http://www.stylelife.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=105741](http://www.stylelife.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=105741) ETA I meant to write “Strauss”, author of The Game, not Syria ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/231 "2013-01-30T17:14:07Z")
Ah, and here’s my favorite Strauss advice, he calls it disqualification. Tell a prospective date she is too young, or you are taken; make her win your affection. So, mijinn, you don’t consider lying to and patronizing others to be manipulative? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/232 "2013-01-30T17:26:18Z")
Is the PUA movement scamming the men using it or scamming the women fooled by it? It can’t be both. Is it a scam because it doesn’t work, or just because they use unsavory methods? Because that seems like a petty judgment. Is it a scam because the guys who use PUA methods have other alternatives and should use those alternatives instead of the PUA methods? If so, then I’d like to file a class action lawsuit against Little Caesar’s food scam. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/233 "2013-01-30T17:27:30Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m on Strauss’ Stylelife Academy forums. From three short threads: women are referred to as numbers on a rating scale, one guy reminds another that women are “just girls”, another warns to kiss a woman before “she moves onto the next bright, shiny object”, Fake enthusiasm about your job and she will beg to suck your dick. Yeah, Syria’s proteges are real princes, huh? [http://www.stylelife.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=105741](http://www.stylelife.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=105741) Only responding to what’s in the thread you linked, I don’t see anything too objectionable. A guy feels bad about working at a gym and being a college student, and other guys tell him to stop defining his social worth by comparing himself to other people and let himself define his self-worth based on other personal qualities. Seems like healthy enough advice to me. I took the > [@](#): > > Be positive about your job and your education like they’re the coolest f\*\*\*ing things in the world! Wooooooh! > > Now go get laid like a rockstar! > > Her: What do you do? > You: I manage a gym! It’s the best job in the world!!! Wooooooh! > Her: OMG you’re amazing :)can I suck your dick pleeeeeaaaase?! post as tongue-in-cheek. If you read it literally, yeah, it’s ridiculous. But I don’t think it was intended that way. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/234 "2013-01-30T17:31:45Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > It’s even funnier when some of them try to be as dehumanising as possible when the forum blocks cock and pussy. Funny, I’d think a forum that blocks cock would be the _last_ place these guys would want to be. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/235 "2013-01-30T17:38:31Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Is the PUA movement scamming the men using it or scamming the women fooled by it? It can’t be both. > > Is it a scam because it doesn’t work, or just because they use unsavory methods? Because that seems like a petty judgment. > > Is it a scam because the guys who use PUA methods have other alternatives and should use those alternatives instead of the PUA methods? If so, then I’d like to file a class action lawsuit against Little Caesar’s food scam. It’s a scam in the same way many faddy diets are scams (though I think “scam” may be too harsh). All diets work, if you keep them up, as food discipline is really all most people need to lose weight - and most if not all faddy diets impose some food discipline. However, some fad diets, while they “work” in that the user loses weight, may actually harm the user, if they do not provide for sufficient nutrition when followed. PUA potentially harms the user by encouraging the user to adopt a more base and selfish persona than the user would otherwise have. Just like a person wishing to lose weight would be better advised to adopt a healthy diet rather than follow an extreme, faddy diet (even though they would lose weight following either), a person wishing to get laid would be better adopting a healthy attitude towards him/herself and towards others, rather than attempting to rely on PUA techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/236 "2013-01-30T17:39:29Z")
Just to piss of both sides on this debate, I will acknowledge that PUA is about deception via being someone or something one is not… …in the eyes of someone who has tinted or fully re-colored her hair, shaved her legs, her armpits and probably mons; augmented her eyelashes, shaped her eyebrows, elevated her bustline, etc., etc. Both of whom console themselves in the event that they go home alone at the end of the evening with “at least I put myself out there.” ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/237 "2013-01-30T17:43:20Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Is the PUA movement scamming the men using it or scamming the women fooled by it? It can’t be both. > > Is it a scam because it doesn’t work, or just because they use unsavory methods? Because that seems like a petty judgment. Scamming naive men into believing there are cheat codes to female companship and in the process of promising men guaranteed sex, Strauss and his ilk devalue the very women the hapless guys originally desired. Teaches men to scam women. Keep reading that board, or if you’re feeling masochistic, hit the other PUA forums and I think you’ll see the nasty underbelly. Fortunately the fad appears to be self limiting as these fellas seem to spend most of their time in these misogynistic wankfests , bragging and whining than actual pestering women. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/238 "2013-01-30T17:49:49Z")
IMHO, it’s a scam because it doesn’t work, pancakes3. I do believe some naturally slick men can use the tricks to get women, but that’s because they’re charming already. That’s just my take on it. ETA: I realize I’m repeating myself, but I think some of the confusion is that Troppus and some others and I have different opinions on the matter, and people are conflating those. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/239 "2013-01-30T18:11:38Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > IMHO, it’s a scam because it doesn’t work, pancakes3. > > I do believe some naturally slick men can use the tricks to get women, but that’s because they’re charming already. That’s just my take on it. > > ETA: I realize I’m repeating myself, but I think some of the confusion is that Troppus and some others and I have different opinions on the matter, and people are conflating those. True. I think it’s a scam because the PUA authors tout the costly programs as “self-improvement” when the opposite is true, as lying, manipulation, trickery, and misogyny are fundamental to the program. There is no substitute or shortcut for life experience and enrichment, though if one is ever found, it won’t involve delusions or devaluing others. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/240 "2013-01-30T18:29:08Z")
Most of what I’ve seen/read/heard about the PUA movement, specifically the “Mystery Method”, is that it’s really good for getting a lot of phone numbers… but not actually converting those #'s into actual dates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543.md?page=13)