# The Pick-Up Artist movement is a scam **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 27, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543 "2013-01-27T18:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/21 "2013-01-27T20:27:04Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > ETA: this is a response to Nzinga’s post #17 > > I think charisma works on most people. The genuine stuff, you know, confidence which arises from natural charm, humor, good looks, life experience; wealth. A charmer with any combination of those characteristics can get away with “looking good, Stretch” if he actually likes and appreciates women as human beings rather than conquests. > > A guy ill-at-ease with the world who has been taught that women are holes, marks, targets, etc, has been trained to dehumanize them, and it smells. I think most people can see through that. Maybe the vulnerable are easier to exploit, and maybe their is some weird justice when the vulnerable weirdo who buys the PUA shtick hooks up with the vulnerable girl who craves attention of any flavor. Yeah, Troppus, I think this is where a lot of confusion comes in. Confident people are better at being charming. Yes. However, they are also better at using dumb tricks to get women. The tricks still work…provided they are in the hands of a confident man. A confident man may not need tricks to begin with…but that doesn’t mean he never uses them to get that super hot chick who thinks she’s too good for the room. The whole thing is like when naturally skinny people (and yes, some do exist) pretend to be able to teach fat people to lose weight. Anything they say beyond, “eat less, exercise more” is likely bullshit. If they say, “eat an apple a day, like I do”, well yeah, it works for THEM because they are naturally slim, but it aint gonna work for me. Now, if I become more likely to eat less and exercise because I have bought a diet book from a naturally slim woman, then I will lose weight. But the diet book was never needed for me to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/22 "2013-01-27T20:58:08Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yeah, Troppus, I think this is where a lot of confusion comes in. > > Confident people are better at being charming. Yes. However, they are also better at using dumb tricks to get women. The tricks still work…provided they are in the hands of a confident man. A confident man may not need tricks to begin with…but that doesn’t mean he never uses them to get that super hot chick who thinks she’s too good for the room. The guy with natural charisma comes across as teasing and flirting when he grins and calls me “stretch”, and there are usually genuine compliments thrown in. That guy likes women, probably has female friends and women he respects in his life. The guy with natural charisma likes life, and likes people, he’s just playing around when he teases. The awkward, obsessed guy practicing a technique just flings insults and it comes across as rude and socially inept. I think charisma can be explained, but I don’t think it can be taught. It requires life experience and a healthy joy in life in general. The hyperfocus on getting laid at the expense of other hobbies and activities results in desperation, not mastery of the technique. This isn’t a fake it till you make it plan; there is nothing to be gained from picking on people and pretending to be someone you aren’t. I get the gist of the whole PUA; it’s human nature to devalue something we can’t get. Like the Porsche fan who says “I’d rather have a 914 ($12,000) over a GT3 ($110,000), followed by a list of flaws the car out of their price range has. Men who aren’t good at meeting women tend to be overcritical, finding flaws and making complaints about their behavior, the guys they date, their past, etc. They devalue women in order to make it sting less when rejected. But the PUA will be in for the biggest disappointment of his life when he finally chooses to settle down and share love with someone, because he won’t respect her and he won’t trust her, because she is nothing more than a means to an end to him. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/23 "2013-01-27T20:58:47Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Aaaannnddd, I just learned a new word. +1 And I may be late to the party here but I now understand her screenname isn’t an ode to shitty phones. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/24 "2013-01-27T21:01:06Z")
I can’t claim to have known any PUAs. The guys I’ve known who attracted women were guys who’d been born with genes that gave them square jaws, broad shoulders, pert butts, etc. And sex came to them, when they wanted it or not; if they’d made any effort or not. IRL, I tend to be somewhat touchy-freely so when these guys talk about it they drop any pretense and come across as somewhat embarassed; as if a big joke had been played on them and the best they can do is take it all in stride. They don’t brag about having gamed: more that they’d been gamed by nature. I recently learned that the men’s jewelry accessory known as the slave bracelet or ID bracelet was pioneered by Rudolph Valentino (who was only in love with one woman in his life, seldom if ever strayed, and was played by her as a chump). While the female population adored and lusted after Valentino, men smeared him as a homosexual. Not simply out of jealousy, but because he’d broken the “rule:” he’d become attractive to women not by virtue of success in war, business or sports, but simply by being attractive. It’s feminine to “be,” but men have to “do.” My point being that straight men who naturally get sex do so not just effortlessly but stupidly; the rest of us by hanging in there at shit jobs or by doing what we can to be good husbands and dads. Against those hard realities, what respect is there for some asshole who claims to have a little bag of tricks? I ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/25 "2013-01-27T21:16:15Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I used to know a woman who unironically said she deserved to be treated like a princess.. The princess shit makes me want to punch people in the face. Even though it’s probably wrong of me to want to punch someone who has the mentality of a 4-year-old. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > And I may be late to the party here but I now understand her screenname isn’t an ode to shitty phones. 😃 Shut up, actually it kind of is because I’d just gotten one when I made this name and that’s what made me think of it. They were kinda good in 2009! ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/26 "2013-01-27T21:22:36Z")
Well, you still kinda want to treat her like a princess; Anastasia Romanov. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/27 "2013-01-27T21:24:32Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Cah fa ya free ree-din!” I like how she sounded Irish. That was the best part. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/28 "2013-01-27T21:26:01Z")
Exactly. An Irish Jamaican from Seattle. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/29 "2013-01-27T21:29:35Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Good one. I almost slept with you. See, I could have any number of superficially hot girls, but here I am talking to you instead. You don’t need to be conventionally hot. I like that about you. (That line from my first post was actually used on me, btw. Pretty much word for word.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/30 "2013-01-27T21:51:28Z")
Hot girls are overrated in my opinion. I want someone who can hold up her end of a conversation on any subject and rarely describes every detail of a shopping trip. I want to know if you had a bad day, but I don’t want to relive every detail of it with you. If she likes me too, well, I can’t help it if she has judgment problems. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/31 "2013-01-27T21:52:08Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Hot girls are overrated in my opinion. I want someone who can hold up her end of a conversation on any subject and rarely describes every detail of shopping trip. If she likes me too, well, I can’t help it if she has judgment problems. So true. There’s no such thing as an attractive and intelligent woman. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/32 "2013-01-27T21:52:48Z")
A messageboard and article database for pick up artists: the Don Juan Forum. > **[SoSuave Discussion Forum](https://www.sosuave.net/forum/)** > > Learn the secrets of meeting, dating, attracting and seducing women. Ask a question on the forum or give advice. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/33 "2013-01-27T21:59:39Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > A guy once told me he didn’t usually like mudsharks but I seemed different. I wonder if he was purposely doing that or was just naturally a fucking idiot, but in any case it definitely did not work. I had a vision of a shark in a designer outfit at a bar. It was very cool. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/34 "2013-01-27T22:00:05Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > A messageboard and article database for pick up artists: the Don Juan Forum. True story: I have an ex named that. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/35 "2013-01-27T22:02:21Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > A messageboard and article database for pick up artists: the Don Juan Forum. > > [SoSuave Discussion Forum](http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index.php) What have I done to deserve this gift? ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/36 "2013-01-27T22:05:07Z")
Okay, which is worse? That it’s called the Don Juan forum, or that its url is [sosauve.net](http://sosauve.net)? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/37 "2013-01-27T22:10:27Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Every thread we have ever had on this topic seemed to focus on the objectification of women with this movement, but the men are the true victims if you ask me. They are being exploited with what amounts to a load of pseudoscience that appears to be based in EP. I feel the true victims are the women who have to deal with these creeps, but I agree that the “Pick-Up Artist Movement” is a scam and that men who buy into it are wasting their time and money. It’s pretty sad. > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > The whole thing is like when naturally skinny people (and yes, some do exist) pretend to be able to teach fat people to lose weight. Anything they say beyond, “eat less, exercise more” is likely bullshit. If they say, “eat an apple a day, like I do”, well yeah, it works for THEM because they are naturally slim, but it aint gonna work for me. I think it’s actually even worse than that, because weight is at least a trait that can be measured easily and objectively. So while there’s no guarantee that the advice of a thin diet expert will actually help you to become as thin as she is, you can at least see for yourself that she’s thin. The number of sexual partners someone has had is not so easily determined. The big self-proclaimed pick-up artist we had here a while back got all evasive and hostile when I pointed out that he actually had no way of knowing how many women the pick-up gurus have slept with. Some of them claim to have had sex with hundreds of women, but there’s no practical way to prove this. It’s hardly unheard of for men to exaggerate their sexual exploits, and that’s just regular guys – not ones who are actually making money based on their claims about how many sexual partners they’ve had. > [@](#): > > Now, if I become more likely to eat less and exercise because I have bought a diet book from a naturally slim woman, then I will lose weight. But the diet book was never needed for me to do that. Yeah, there did seem to be a lot of this kind of “magic feather effect” going on with the aspiring pick-up artists. I remember repeatedly seeing things like “I never even would have had the nerve to talk to this woman before, but I tried these pick-up artist techniques on her and she gave me her number!” I don’t doubt that pick-up artist techniques are more likely to lead to getting women’s phone numbers than literally doing NOTHING, but not bothering with the whole pick-up artist thing and just talking to women like a normal human being is _also_ more effective than nothing. If pick-up artist techniques give some men more confidence to approach women then good for them I guess, but there are other, better ways to gain confidence. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/38 "2013-01-27T22:12:14Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Okay, which is worse? That it’s called the Don Juan forum, or that its url is [sosauve.net](http://sosauve.net)? Surely the latter, for no one has been able to use the term “suave” without irony/lack of self-awereness after 1990: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx64\_N4AA04](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx64_N4AA04) ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/39 "2013-01-27T22:19:58Z")
Yeah, I can’t ever hear that word without thinking of Rico Suave. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/40 "2013-01-28T00:04:24Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > So true. There’s no such thing as an attractive and intelligent woman. I find intelligence attractive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543.md?page=3)