# The Pick-Up Artist movement is a scam **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 27, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543 "2013-01-27T18:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/41 "2013-01-28T00:18:20Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Okay, which is worse? That it’s called the Don Juan forum, or that its url is [sosauve.net](http://sosauve.net)? I’d have trouble deciding. But what I DO know, given this thread, is that I’m glad I’m a lesbian. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/42 "2013-01-28T00:19:22Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I find intelligence attractive. So…cast of The Big Bang Theory as opposed to say…Baywatch? ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/43 "2013-01-28T00:20:06Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Yeah, I can’t ever hear that word without thinking of Rico Suave. OMG. That song. As a young butch lesbian, I sang it in my head about myself. Hmm… maybe I’ll start a lesbian PUA. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/44 "2013-01-28T00:26:41Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > maybe I’ll start a lesbian PUA. 😛 NM. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/45 "2013-01-28T00:26:52Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > So true. There’s no such thing as an attractive and intelligent woman. Christie Hefner. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/46 "2013-01-28T00:30:35Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > What have I done to deserve this gift? It’s even funnier when some of them try to be as dehumanising as possible when the forum blocks cock and pussy. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/47 "2013-01-28T00:32:08Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > So, the PUA movement is a scam. I feel like I’m saying Ms. Cleo can’t tell you your future if you call her now. I mean, this is so outdated. The only reason I’m bringing it up is because it came up in another thread and I was taken to task by a poster for not believing that the scientific community smiles on these pick-up artist shenanigans. And I really didn’t want to hijack that thread. > > Now, look…if they were to say to young socially retarded men, 'Hey, if you just start talking to girls and practicing being more social, you will see more success." I would be cool with that and not regard it as a scam. > > But when they pretend that it is their techniques and tricks that get the pussy, well, that is where the scam comes in. They are just trying to get your money for their books and t.v. shows and DVDs or whatever. > > That stuff aint gonna work for shy awkward Poindexter. If he tries those techniques on hot women in a bar, he is going to look crazy as hell. He is never going to turn into the kind of smooth playa that the scam artists are promising him. He will eventually get better at getting dates through sheer practice and increased opportunity, but that isn’t what the PUA sold him, so it’s still scammy, sammy. > > Let’s take one of the favorite techniques…negging. Or whatever name they gave the back-handed compliment. That actually WORKS. Yes, that works, lots of times, on lots of different women…not just dumb women, and it works on men too. You know how I know this works? Because it is something I did all the time as a saleswoman. But it worked when I did it. It didn’t work when my co-workers tried. You know why? Because a lot of my coworkers didn’t have the charm to pull it off, and I couldn’t teach it. > > Know what’s interesting? I could teach them to get their numbers up. I taught them that by telling them to take the calls they were dodging and to ASK FOR THE SALE. You would be surprised how many salesmen weren’t doing that. But, I could NOT teach them the charm and style that it took to pull off stuff like negging the customer. If they tried that, it was a disaster for them…they ended up looking silly. Just like guys who try that crap at the bar look. > > It works for the guys who already have that inborn je ne sais quoi. > > Every thread we have ever had on this topic seemed to focus on the objectification of women with this movement, but the men are the true victims if you ask me. They are being exploited with what amounts to a load of pseudoscience that appears to be based in EP. > > Again, I realize this topic may be dated, but I get the feeling there are a few stragglers out there, still paying for seminars and books. Stop it. It’s junk. Wow. People who wrote books and teach seminars want people to buy their books and attend seminars. Film at 11. Also, it turns out that many health supplements don’t work 100% as advertised either. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/48 "2013-01-28T00:32:27Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I find intelligence attractive. I think her point is that there are many intelligent, beautiful women, and it’s not an either/or proposition. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/49 "2013-01-28T00:37:51Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Wow. People who wrote books and teach seminars want people to buy their books and attend seminars. Film at 11. > > Also, it turns out that many health supplements don’t work 100% as advertised either. Just so you know. As for that slight anti-woman attitude that underlies and pervades it… minor point, right? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/50 "2013-01-28T00:40:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Wow. People who wrote books and teach seminars want people to buy their books and attend seminars. Film at 11. > > Also, it turns out that many health supplements don’t work 100% as advertised either. Just so you know. There are people reading and posting to the SDMB who are aware that health supplements aren’t always as reliable as touted, but\* do \*believe a book or a seminar will help them master the art of taking home women. So… yeah, it kinda needs to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/51 "2013-01-28T01:10:42Z")
Dang. And to think that I spent all those years just being who I am, when I could have had a ‘technique’. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/52 "2013-01-28T02:13:31Z")
I agree that a lot of it is down to just getting men to talk to girls and make some sort of effort, but I don’t think that makes it a scam. The problem with calling it a scam is that it kind of does what it says it’s going to do, for the most part: it teaches guys who don’t know how to try to get women to fuck them how to try to get women to fuck them. There are a lot of problems with it, such as the fact that it’s awful, but I don’t think it’s because the tricks don’t have any value. A guy who doesn’t have any confidence can’t act like a confident person unless somebody tells him how to pretend to be. The thing is, the sort of guy for whom this stuff is valuable is the sort of guy who knows the way he’s acting isn’t helping him interact with women, and he knows that other, seemingly shittier guys interact more easily with women, but he doesn’t know _specifically_ how to act. So then there’s this community – the goddam “Seduction Community” for christ’s sake – that says hey, here’s like a thousand rules. Memorize them all and act exactly like that. Here is literally the exact sequence of words to say if you can’t follow the rules in your own way; just say them. It’s all based on some pretty horrible quacky principles, and I think it has scary ramifications for people who think they’re learning secrets of the human psyche, but the fact of the matter is that for the normal guy who is desperate for women’s attention, being given this kind of script is tremendously useful, practically speaking. So then it gets super dangerous, to be clear, because these guys realize that holy fuck, all you have to do is clown around and act kind of dumb at a bar and women talk to you! and they think they just found out that they’re wizards, but I think to really get what’s going on with pickup artists you have to recognize that between point A, where they have no idea how to even indicate that they _want_ to have sex with a woman, to point B, where a few women actually have sex with them, they’ve learned something. They’re likely to ascribe the lesson they learned to entirely the wrong things, and become worse people as a result, but hey, a lesson’s a lesson! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/53 "2013-01-28T02:48:10Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > A guy once told me he didn’t usually like mudsharks… > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Aaaannnddd, I just learned a new word. > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Exactly. An Irish Jamaican from Seattle. I learned a new word, too. I had a completely different association between mudsharks and Seattle: http:/ /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shark\_episode > [@Troppus](#): > > So…cast of The Big Bang Theory as opposed to say…Baywatch? Well, that blonde is a given, I’ve heard the one guy’s new wife is out of his league, and I’ve seen a photo of Mayim Bialik in her altogether that demonstrated she wears far too much clothing on that show. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/54 "2013-01-28T02:56:42Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Know what’s interesting? I could teach them to get their numbers up. I taught them that by telling them to take the calls they were dodging and to ASK FOR THE SALE. You would be surprised how many salesmen weren’t doing that. But, I could NOT teach them the charm and style that it took to pull off stuff like negging the customer. If they tried that, it was a disaster for them…they ended up looking silly. Just like guys who try that crap at the bar look. > > It works for the guys who already have that inborn je ne sais quoi. One of my Japanese friends here is painfully awkward. If a team were tasked to find the perfectly _wrong_ thing to say in particular situation, they would never match him. But he was a salesman and did OK, because he would make the call. I’m sure he could have done better had he any sense of what real humans talked like, but a lot of his regular customers actually preferred someone who wasn’t trying to bullshit them. He could never get married for the longest time. No surprise there. Even signing up for a matchmaking service didn’t help. It was painful listening to his stories and how the meetings would go. While I’m not a Mr. Smooth, I’d try the best I could to give common sense answer. “No, it’s probably best to not say ‘Because I never had the courage’ when asked during the initial meeting as to why you haven’t ever been married. Save that for when you know them better.” He knew that he couldn’t charm a woman in a bar, and the women in the bar would be very happy to know that he didn’t try. Using the pick up techniques would have been painful. But, he eventually did find someone who appreciated him for being who he was. And he got married and has a lovely little girl. Of course, his wife is psycho and took him for all he’s worth, plus more. There really isn’t any justice in the world. I’m lying about that last paragraph. It was just sounding too fairy tale, so I wanted to shake things up. 😃 They’re really doing fine. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/55 "2013-01-28T03:02:46Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I think her point is that there are many intelligent, beautiful women, and it’s not an either/or proposition. No, it isn’t and either or proposition. If a woman is intelligent and kind and funny, I find her attractive. Or as someone else put it, the women on Big Bang Theory. All intelligent and funny, especially AFF. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/56 "2013-01-28T03:21:11Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > No, it isn’t and either or proposition. If a woman is intelligent and kind and funny, I find her attractive. Or as someone else put it, the women on Big Bang Theory. All intelligent and funny, especially AFF. Lead actress on one of TV’s most popular sitcoms? Yeah, I guess one of those will do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/57 "2013-01-28T03:21:16Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Aaaannnddd, I just learned a new word. Me, too. And I learned “coalburner” on the dope a year or so back. This forum is excellent for my cultural literacy! ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/58 "2013-01-28T03:23:02Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > There are people reading and posting to the SDMB who are aware that health supplements aren’t always as reliable as touted, but\* do \*believe a book or a seminar will help them master the art of taking home women. So… yeah, it kinda needs to be said. What needs to be said? That Nzinga doesn’t like PUA techniques? I don’t think that it “needs to be said”–if Nzinga wants to share her opinion on the PUA thing, she’s perfectly free to. Nzinga and you are acting like you are making a pronouncement from on high about an objective truth–i.e., that the PUA thing “is a scam”–when you are really just sharing your little ol’ opinion about something. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/59 "2013-01-28T03:30:35Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Let’s take one of the favorite techniques…negging. Or whatever name they gave the back-handed compliment. That actually WORKS. Yes, that works, lots of times, on lots of different women…not just dumb women, and it works on men too. You know how I know this works? Because it is something I did all the time as a saleswoman. Can you give an example of this in a sales context? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/60 "2013-01-28T03:33:16Z")
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