# The Pick-Up Artist movement is a scam **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 27, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543 "2013-01-27T18:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/61 "2013-01-28T03:35:24Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s a message board, and the forum is called IMHO, so we’re aware that our little opinions don’t amount to a match on a fire, but you are welcome to push your own tiny agenda into the thread if you feel it’s worth sharing. :rolleyes: Please. The tone in your post and Nzinga’s post is far from “oh, by the way, here’s my little ol’ opinion about something.” It’s very clearly “allow me to share with you the absolute objective truth about something.” It’s gross. It’s commonplace around here. And it’s ignorance, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/62 "2013-01-28T03:37:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: Please. The tone in your post and Nzinga’s post is far from “oh, by the way, here’s my little ol’ opinion about something.” It’s very clearly “allow me to share with you the absolute objective truth about something.” > > It’s gross. It’s commonplace around here. And it’s ignorance, pure and simple. Hey, that’s just, like, your opinion man. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/63 "2013-01-28T03:46:28Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Hey, that’s just, like, your opinion man. Hey, if you weren’t such an alcoholic I’d totally want to date you. (Am I doing this negging thing right?) ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/64 "2013-01-28T03:47:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: Please. The tone in your post and Nzinga’s post is far from “oh, by the way, here’s my little ol’ opinion about something.” It’s very clearly “allow me to share with you the absolute objective truth about something.” > > It’s gross. It’s commonplace around here. And it’s ignorance, pure and simple. Let’s hear your opinion on the PUA technique, because we’re all about sharing our opinions here in In My Humble Opinion. Go on… ---
**Author:** ![azraiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@azraiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azraiel)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/65 "2013-01-28T03:58:52Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I think her point is that there are many intelligent, beautiful women, and it’s not an either/or proposition. A wise friend of mine once said “Smart, Sexy, Sane. You get to pick two of them.” I’m certain that he was inclusive in his statement, and that women have the same choice. But I am a cynical bastard of a curmudgeonly misanthrope, so YMMV. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/66 "2013-01-28T04:15:20Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > The guy with natural charisma likes life, and likes people, he’s just playing around when he teases. Or doesn’t like people but is damn good at cold reading anyway. Understanding a subject does not require or involve liking it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/67 "2013-01-28T04:18:15Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I agree that a lot of it is down to just getting men to talk to girls and make some sort of effort, but I don’t think that makes it a scam. The problem with calling it a scam is that it kind of does what it says it’s going to do, for the most part: it teaches guys who don’t know how to try to get women to fuck them how to try to get women to fuck them. There are a lot of problems with it, such as the fact that it’s awful, but I don’t think it’s because the tricks don’t have any value. A guy who doesn’t have any confidence can’t act like a confident person unless somebody tells him how to pretend to be. I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say this pick-up artist stuff is a scam if the people making money off of it claim that it is more effective than it is. If Mystery and his ilk were saying “Hey guys, if you follow my advice then you’ll have better odds of getting laid than if you never approached a woman at all!” then I wouldn’t consider that a scam. The whole thing would still be pretty awful for a variety of reasons, but people would at least be getting what they’d paid for. But I just pulled up Mystery’s book on [Amazon](http://www.amazon.com/The-Mystery-Method-Beautiful-ebook/dp/B000Q9ENWQ/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1) to check what his sales pitch is, and I was not surprised to find that he makes claims a bit bolder than “Following my technique is better than literally doing nothing.” You can read an excerpt of the first chapter by clicking “See all Editorial Reviews”, and in this first chapter he says “If you follow the Mystery Method, as outlined in this book, you literally should be able to seduce any woman you meet–no matter how attractive she is and no matter how far out of reach she seems”. He doesn’t just say that his book will help men to be better at seducing women, or that his strategies work on many women, he’s claiming that by following his method any man will be successful at seducing any woman in the world. If that’s not true then this is a scam. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/68 "2013-01-28T04:27:42Z")
The technique teaches guys to strut around, overdress, regard women as something less than human, and say shitty things to them. I guess if that behavior gets someone laid it’s not technically a scam, but the process turns a shy guy into a woman hating jerk. So maybe not a scam, but a path to erosion of character and image to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/69 "2013-01-28T05:01:31Z")
I’m hardly an expert, but my SO and I used to watch that Mystery show on VH1. They didn’t have any of this “Pick up Artist” stuff when I was growing up. I had to learn the hard way. Through years of trial and error talking to girls in class, at bars, keggers, frat parties and whatnot. From the show, a lot of that stuff rings true. Paying attention to body language. Not overstaying your welcome. Not alienating her friends so they get all “we need to go home now” while at the same time trying to split her off. Even that “neg” stuff. But back in the day we just called it “being a typical douche frat guy trying to get laid”. > [@Nzinga](#): > > It works for the guys who already have that inborn je ne sais quoi. I guess that’s the question. How much je ne sais quoi is inborn and how much can be learned? But yeah, the “successful at seducing any woman in the world” stuff is bullshit. Do guys believe there is some magic jedi mind shit that some gross unattractive woman can use to get you to sleep with her (besides maybe large volumes of alchohol)? They what makes guys think that stuff works for all women? The other thing is, how much of your personality do you want to have to fake all the time in order to get laid? My sense is these PUA guys don’t try to bring out the best “you”. They try to turn you into some sort of club hopping cheeseball so you can pick up the sort of girls who go to clubs to meet cheeseballs. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/70 "2013-01-28T05:10:49Z")
I have really mixed feelings about the whole scene. There is A LOT of really gross, misogynist bullshit in it. And there are plenty of snake-oil salesman trying to cash in on the dim and desperate. Overall, it’s a slimy scene for sure. Underneath the window-dressing is some solid good advice: Don’t hesitate to approach people you are attracted to, understand that sometimes women are looking for casual sex partners too, be honest with yourself about what kind of relationship you are looking for from a given partner, don’t over-invest in a relationship before the other partner is matching your intensity, have a life outside of your date, and don’t treat people you are attracted to like unapproachable deities rather than ordinary human beings. It’s a lot of the same advice you see, repackaged in a slightly different set of bullshit, in women’s dating books like “The Rules.” In the end, it all usually boils down to not getting over-invested too soon, which is a solid good idea for any gender. I guess that people who buy in to dating systems tend to already be prone to some bitterness and desire for control, given that they’ve probably not had much success in the past. so it’s not surprising that this approach works so well in selling books. In any case, I think a lot of guys try it, have fun with it, and eventually move on into more mature relationships. Some don’t, of course, but they’d probably end up being douchebags for life even without some framework for it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/71 "2013-01-28T05:13:07Z")
You have to give the PUA guys credit; they’ve made a fortune on this despite never being asked to provide any proof that it works. Of course, the genius of it is that the prerequisites for following their programs are that, before you use their allegedly wonderful techniques, you: 1. Get yourself in shape, get a nice haircut, etc. 2. Wear nice clothes, and 3. Attempt to pick up as many women as possible. Of course, steps 1-3 will virtually guarantee you pick up more women than you did before, irrespective of what “techniques” you use. So guys will report that the TECHNIQUE works, when what’s working is they’re wearing clothes that fit and asking a lot of women out. It’s brilliant, really. But all self-help stuff is like this. Diet books have been flying off the shelves for decades. All basically say “eat healthier food and stop jamming Doritos into your noise hole” but dress it up a little and people will pay $24.99 for than 17,898th book to say the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/72 "2013-01-28T05:16:13Z")
What I don’t understand is, nearly everyone is a phony playing some act when trying to score. Or even when just meeting anyone else. We constantly strive to give some impression, present ourselves as some “kind” of person. If your chosen method is ingratiating, cloying kindness and insincere compliments, then that’s OK. If you chose to use a neg, which as I understand it is done in a way that does not belittle, and thus alienate, the recipient, just hints at your lukewarm interest, then you are commiting some heinous social error. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/73 "2013-01-28T05:29:41Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Yeah, I can’t ever hear that word without thinking of Rico Suave. I think of shampoo ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/74 "2013-01-28T05:33:27Z")
I don’t know much about the whole pua thing, but I highly recommend reading The Game by Neil Strauss, about a bunch of losers who pick _themselves_ up. Strauss, a journalist, was a founding member of the original PUA group and he wrote an expose. It is truly fascinating. From the moment when Strauss first meets Mystery in Canada, (Mystery is throwing a hissy fit in his bedroom at his parent’s place), to when Courtney Love comes to live with them all in the old rat pack mansion in Hollywood. You will laugh out loud, I promise. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/75 "2013-01-28T05:58:20Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > A messageboard and article database for pick up artists: the Don Juan Forum. > > [SoSuave Discussion Forum](http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index.php) OMG this is more fun than Sauron’s Blog. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/76 "2013-01-28T06:15:22Z")
Jesus Christ those Rico Suaves are obnoxious. Sometimes I lurk on Stormfront but I could only take about 5 minutes of the Don Juan Forum. ---
**Author:** ![Diamonds02](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Diamonds02](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diamonds02)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/77 "2013-01-28T07:41:09Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > OMG. That song. As a young butch lesbian, I sang it in my head about myself. Hmm… maybe I’ll start a lesbian PUA. 😛 Yes, yes…we should 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/78 "2013-01-28T08:30:48Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I feel the true victims are the women who have to deal with these creeps, but I agree that the “Pick-Up Artist Movement” is a scam and that men who buy into it are wasting their time and money. It’s pretty sad. You know, maybe it’s because I don’t get a lot of men hitting on me (and the ones that do, I actually welcome the attention) but I don’t have a lot of sympathy for women who have to put up with guys trying to game them. If a guy tried to game me, I would do one of two things…either get gamed and like it, or peep game and shut the whole shit down. I’m not a victim. There really are smooth characters out there who play a lot of games and are good at it. Wasn’t one of the reality show PUAs a freakin’ magician/showman? I mean…those kinds of guys are going to be better at getting more women in the sack. That is true. The scam part is when they pretend they can transform dweeps into Don Juans. It aint happenin’. Women sound a little silly to me when they get all worked up about it, “Oh no! Someone is teaching men to be romeos, and those romeos are going to take advantage of women with their mind tricks!” No. No, they aren’t. The only women who are going to fall for mind tricks are the ones who fall for the mind tricks of the romeos that are out there. Not the poor suckers who are paying for books and seminars. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What needs to be said? That Nzinga doesn’t like PUA techniques? I don’t think that it “needs to be said”–if Nzinga wants to share her opinion on the PUA thing, she’s perfectly free to. > > Nzinga and you are acting like you are making a pronouncement from on high about an objective truth–i.e., that the PUA thing “is a scam”–when you are really just sharing your little ol’ opinion about something. You know how I know you got too defensive to even read the OP? Because I never said I don’t like PUA techniques. The PUA movement/culture/market is a scam. That doesn’t mean I have a problem with PUAs. PUAs are good at picking up women…it’s a scam because they are charging others to learn to be PUAs and that aint gonna happen. I started the thread in response to a poster who seemed to honestly believe there was scientific evidence that these seminars and books work as promised. Needed to be said. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: Please. The tone in your post and Nzinga’s post is far from “oh, by the way, here’s my little ol’ opinion about something.” It’s very clearly “allow me to share with you the absolute objective truth about something.” > > It’s gross. It’s commonplace around here. And it’s ignorance, pure and simple. Oh, oh no! Nzinga is posting in a bossy voice like she owns the place! It’s gross and makes my tummy hurt! She doesn’t say things like, “my lil’ ol’ opinion” so even though she put her thread in IMHO she thinks she is the boss of me and everyone and it’s disgusting and I’m nauseous. Hey, mods! Make Nzinga post more softly and passively! It’s icky! > [@msmith537](#): > > I guess that’s the question. How much je ne sais quoi is inborn and how much can be learned? Snipped, of course. This is the thing…I don’t believe je ne sais quoi can be taught. Think about acting for a moment. People think it’s easy, I know, but it’s not, and that is part of the reason some people become very rich and famous doing it. Look how much Daniel Day Lewis puts into learning to play a character for just one movie. Imagine what it would be like if you had to learn to turn into a smooth talking playa. It is like a bad movie just thinking about it. When you neg someone and you aren’t a natural at it, you look and sound dumb as fuck. Now, let’s say you keep trying it over and over…eventually you will get better at talking to women through sheer practice. That is a whole other beast than what those books and DVDs promise. They know if they are honest about what they can offer, no one will buy that. Scam. Gigi asked for an example of negging in sales. In my line of sales, the customers used to call in thinking that help was free. So they would be very irate when they find out they are out of software warranty and have to pay. They start yelling that they will fix it their damn self, and never buy a computer with us again. Many, many agents lose sales this way. You could neg a customer here… "Thanks for holding, Mr. Gigi. I see here in the notes that the tech put in on your last call, you actually \*do \*have a \*slight \*amount of technical knowledge! That’s good news, because it means that you know just enough about computers to realize you are going to need an expert’s help with something of this magnitude. Ha, exactly…you would be surprised at how many customers aren’t smart enough to know when to hand over the reigns, and it sure does bite them in the end, they end up needing a whole new unit. So, I’m going to go ahead and set you up with the year premium all American support; which credit card are we going to put that on today? If you have a natural charm on a call, the customer will buy that. I have called into question their level of expertise and I had the nerve to try to paint it like a good thing. When I would try to get other agents to do this, it didn’t work. They didn’t know when to crack a joke, or when to shut the fuck up. They didn’t know how to speak with authoritativeness but not pushiness. They didn’t know because each customer is different and you can’t have a bag of tricks that fit everyone. It only used to work for me and a co-worker who was also good at bullshittin’. It wasn’t something you could teach. I really tried. And I wasn’t the only one who tried. We often had all kinds of sales seminars and lecturers and visitors who tried to close the gap between the two top sellers and everyone else on the team. I was sent to Florida once to teach sales techniques. You know I did? I said, “I can teach them to get their numbers up because some aren’t asking for the sale or taking the calls.” I didn’t say, “I can teach them to sell like me.” because I knew I couldn’t do that. I can NOT change someone’s natural being. When a dude I like is kicking it to me, he has so much of what we used to call ‘steeze’ when I was young. The way he licks his lips, drops his gaze, knows when to smile that sideways smirk, when to touch me, when not to, the way he stands, walks, adjusts his clothes…all of these things are a part of who he is as a cool cat. If he does some more advanced gaming on my ass, I may never even know it. But if he charges a poindexter to learn to pull the same games, the poindexter isn’t going to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/79 "2013-01-28T08:50:02Z")
All I know for sure is that my act of crying and begging and trembling doesn’t work, so maybe I ought to look into the whole “abusive” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543/80 "2013-01-28T11:15:11Z")
As I’ve said on the dope many times, the core of the PUA thing is self-improvement of a similar kind to assertiveness or self-confidence coaching. Sure, if someone is saying “Sleep with any woman you want!” or shit like that, of course it’s BS, but anywhere that money can be made is going to attract shysters sooner or later. But the core of it is fine, and I keep a copy of The Game handy for friends who come into this believing it is all about tricking women and making them do something they don’t want to do. What’s more interesting to me at this point is why some people have this hatred of the whole idea of men (and, indeed, sometimes women) trying to improve themselves in this way. If it doesn’t work and/or “a shy guy will always be a shy guy”, why do you have such a problem with this whole thing? Why, among all the ways that people can waste their money, does this one bother you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pick-up-artist-movement-is-a-scam/648543.md?page=5)