# The Pie Crust Quest Revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 24, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936 "2011-11-24T00:26:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/1 "2011-11-24T00:26:49Z")
I have been making pie and pie crust for 40 years. Sometimes I think there’s no recipe I haven’t tried, but since I’ve never managed to make the pie crust of my dreams, the one that I used to have at a local deli in LA that doesn’t exist anymore, I know I haven’t. THAT recipe eludes me still. I have been a student of pastry all these years, learning all the things that contribute to our detract from a fantastic crust, and still the perfection eludes me. This deli that used to exist was a family place using handed-down family recipes. They made absolutely stellar pies, astonishing pies, perfect pies. And they made two kinds: flaky crust fruit pies and short crust cream pies. The thing about their crusts was that they were so excellent, so perfectly created, so flawlessly formulated, that they could be the thickest crusts I’ve ever come across in any pie ever and the result was that you found yourself wildly grateful for that fact. The flaky crust was an extraordinary well-browned, ultra flaky yet also having some elements of a short-crumb as well, very thick and brown at the crimp and simply heaven. They made that most elusive of pies, _ **boysenberry.** _ Oh lord I thought I’d die they were so good. The cream pies, (banana, coconut, chocolate and better still, lemon meringue with the tartest, most delicious lemon filling) were piled high in these short-crumb pie crusts that were not truly sweet, but were some kind of special heavenly super-tender shortbreadlike thick crust that I could happily eat slabs of no matter what kind of filling was in it. And in 40 years of making pies and trying all kinds of crust recipes I have never come close to replicating those crusts. But if any Dopers have any secrets to Ultra Crust, the kind that you can pretty much eat all by itself because it’s so delicious, please share, because it’s one of life’s big quests for me. The other one is finding a ham like the ones my mother used to make, but I’m pretty sure that the only hope I have of ever coming close is forking up BIG BIG money for heritage pork, and even then I’m not holding out much hope. Ham to dream of and cry over, it was so amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/2 "2011-11-24T01:33:59Z")
Half an hour ago the toaster bell went off, signalling that the pie scraps were finished baking. My two-year-old declared that my wife and I could split one of the ten scraps, because the rest were for her. Nice try, kiddo. They were delicious. And not very complicated. I do a modified Joy-Of-Cooking recipe, something like this: > [@](#): > > Put 2.5 cups flour (I use King Arthur, FWIW) in a food processor. > Add a tablespoon of sugar and .5 tsp salt and some cinnamon and nutmeg (the spices are optional and awesome). > Process. > Cut two sticks of butter into about 30 pieces each (3 widthwise cuts, 9 lengthwise cuts), add, process until crumbly. > Add 1 Tbsp ice water at a time through the tube while pulsing. Stop when it starts to stick together and test: you want it to be just a little less sticky than brown sugar. > Dump onto rolling mat. Form into two balls. Put the balls into Saran Wrap and flatten. Refrigerate for awhile (I did an hour or two today, just because I had the time; you can omit this step entirely). > Roll. The crust has a very strong butter flavor. It’s not flaky, much more of a tart crust texture, but it’s really really good, and like I said, the scraps left over after forming the pie crust are wonderful when briefly baked into buttery crispiness. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/3 "2011-11-24T01:37:47Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And in 40 years of making pies and trying all kinds of crust recipes I have never come close to replicating those crusts. > > But if any Dopers have any secrets to Ultra Crust, the kind that you can pretty much eat all by itself because it’s so delicious, please share, because it’s one of life’s big quests for me. After years of trying to find the right recipe, what I eventually concluded was that it’s 99% about technique. It wasn’t until I was playing around with some biscuit recipes to use has a pot pie topping, while also playing with puff pastry, did I realize that one of the key features is how hard you press while rolling. The key to a great biscuit, as well as with puff pastry, is handling it as little as possible. When you translate this to pie, it means rolling as lightly as possible to get the job done. Traditionally I never had enough dough, or enough time, so I was rolling hard and fast trying to get lots of thin sheets. But if you instead start with lots, roll rather gently, then cut to fit what you need, you’ll end up with an entirely different product. It’s possible this is the secret at the deli: they had a sheeter, and could roll out lots of dough quickly and consistently. > [@Stoid](#): > > The other one is finding a ham like the ones my mother used to make, but I’m pretty sure that the only hope I have of ever coming close is forking up BIG BIG money for heritage pork, and even then I’m not holding out much hope. Ham to dream of and cry over, it was so amazing. I think I’ve given up on ever finding good ham again. ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/4 "2011-11-24T01:59:10Z")
Have you tried [vodka pie crust](http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2007/11/cooks-illustrated-foolproof-pie-dough-recipe.html) from Cook’s Illustrated? It’s got science behind it and everything! It is quite delicious and flaky. ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/5 "2011-11-24T02:01:45Z")
Have you tried [vodka pie crust](http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2007/11/cooks-illustrated-foolproof-pie-dough-recipe.html) from Cook’s Illustrated? It’s got science behind it and everything! It is quite delicious and flaky. What kind of ham? Can you describe what made it special? Was it a country ham? ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/6 "2011-11-24T02:10:03Z")
> [@Cub\_Mistress](#): > > Have you tried [vodka pie crust](http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2007/11/cooks-illustrated-foolproof-pie-dough-recipe.html) from Cook’s Illustrated? It’s got science behind it and everything! It is quite delicious and flaky. Ah, nice to see that recipe doesn’t lock you out for not registering. Also, Alton Brown on Good Eats uses alcohol to moisten his pie crust. Gluten can’t form if you over work a pie crust if its made with alcohol. > **[Super Apple Pie](https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/super-apple-pie-recipe-1953451)** > > Get Super Apple Pie Recipe from Food Network ---
**Author:** ![Ashes\_Ashes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@Ashes\_Ashes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashes_Ashes)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/7 "2011-11-24T02:10:07Z")
I wish I could tell you my recipe, but it’s always different. The weather, the flour and it’s moisture content-- they will all change what you need to do. As mentioned, most of it is technique. What I have learned is that most recipes are written for much cooler rooms than in SoCal, so I chill _everything_, even the processor and board. Also, I keep handling it to a minimum (hence the processor) to keep from overworking and overheating the dough. Good luck! Fine pie crust is a beautiful thing. ---
**Author:** ![loshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce73a5/32.png) [@loshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/loshan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/8 "2011-11-24T02:31:13Z")
I can make really good crust that consistently looks like crap. Or I can make a really pretty pie crust that tastes like crap. I have managed to make one that both looked and tasted like crap, but never one that was both tasty and pretty. But I keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/9 "2011-11-24T11:01:49Z")
Have you tried Lard? ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/10 "2011-11-24T11:48:15Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Have you tried Lard? That’s my Mom’s secret and it’s a perfect crust every time. Flaky and gorgeous and so good you’ll **want** to eat the leftover crust. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/11 "2011-11-24T14:52:23Z")
I heard that leaf lard makes the best pie crust, and this year I bought half a pig and rendered the lard so I had some and used it to make a pie. I haven’t had the finished version yet (that’ll be after dinner) but so far, it’s the tastiest pie crust I’ve ever made. Easy to work with, too. ---
**Author:** ![FoundWaldo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@FoundWaldo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoundWaldo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/12 "2011-11-24T16:52:43Z")
The Cooks Illustrated vodka crust is my go-to. I had trouble with pie crust for many years until I tried that recipe. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/13 "2011-11-24T17:41:15Z")
> [@FoundWaldo](#): > > The Cooks Illustrated vodka crust is my go-to. I had trouble with pie crust for many years until I tried that recipe. My understanding is that vinegar also works in the same manner, and tends to be more readily available. My go to recipe has about a tablespoon of cider vinegar in it. Personally, I hate the thought of someone having to go out of their way to get vodka so they can finish a pie. If only grocery stores could sell alcohol… Now I’m curious if a hard cider would work well in the crust for an apple pie, I see no reason to add a clear flavorless alcohol when there are so many alternatives. Spiced rum perhaps??? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/14 "2011-11-24T21:48:26Z")
[The Pie and Pastry Bible](http://www.amazon.com/Pastry-Bible-Rose-Levy-Beranbaum/dp/0684813483/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322171061&sr=1-1) by Rose Levy Beranbaum has the best pie crust recipes that I’ve found. They are a little elaborate - they call for putting the flour and butter in the freezer, for example - but if you follow the directions carefully the results will be perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/15 "2011-11-24T23:57:04Z")
Just popped in to dare y’all to try to say “Pie Crust Quest” correctly ten times in quick succession. I can’t do it and bet you can’t either! ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/16 "2011-11-28T17:45:18Z")
European style butter, minimal handling, very cold ingredients are my key elements. Put all the ingredients in the freezer for a while. Take 2/3 of the butter and literally cut it into the flour using two knives, until the mixture is like meal. Then add the rest and cut it in until the flour-covered butter is in pieces the size of peas. Refrigerate. Roll out the crust(s) as gently and quickly as possible. The result is both flaky and flavorful. ---
**Author:** ![missinformation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@missinformation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missinformation)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/17 "2011-11-28T20:56:46Z")
My mother uses the frozen pie crusts… When I made pie crusts, I always used Crisco and watched the weather for the perfect humidity reading (ex’s grandmother said between 30 and 60% made for a perfect crust) ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/18 "2011-11-28T21:22:03Z")
My mother made incredible pie crust by FEEL. She always made enough for whatever size pie she was making, and had scraps left over. Those were cut into strips, sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar and baked. We called them “crusties.” After I got married, I found that I had not inherited the pie crust gene. I’d follow recipes to the letter. All attempts went something like this: Measure flour. Add salt. Mix. Measure fat (Crisco, butter, whatever…) Combine fat with flour mixture. [Momma used her hands. I tried hands, two knives, I even bought a pastry cutter. _sigh_] Add cold water (ice water, ice water with white vinegar), one tablespoon at a time. [Typically as follows: one tablespoon, nothing. Two tablespoons, nothing. Three tablespoons, nothing. One-quarter cup, nothing. One-half cup, soup. Throw out, repeat] After following this recipe several times in succession, I throw everything away, flop down on the bed crying, and insist Hubster go to the grocery store and buy pre-made crusts. Through the years, I’ve talked to many women, and it turns out they make pie crust the same way. Our numbers are legion. I found a recipe from a VERY old cookbook for boiling water pie crust. It DOES work, beautifully. Two major points when using this one: (1) after mixing, the crust MUST be wrapped in plastic and put into the refrigerator for a couple of hours to cool, and (2) handling must be extremely minimal when rolling out, or the crust turns to shoe leather. My chief way of making pie crust these days is to buy my pies at Coco’s, Marie Callendar, etc. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/19 "2011-11-28T21:34:34Z")
Out of curiosity, do other folks use a food processor? I use one for biscuits and pie crust. It’s super-quick, results in minimal handling and heating of the ingredients, and gives a great crust. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936/20 "2011-11-28T22:39:39Z")
I mentioned this thread to my wife, and she immediately said “It’s probably the ingredients.” Are you using non-bromated flour, e.g. King Arthur (which my wife always uses)? She also said that the deli might be using pastry flour, that you might not even be able to get in the store. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pie-crust-quest-revisited/603936.md?page=2)