# The "Pit Bull" Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682 "2009-11-23T19:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/261 "2009-11-30T20:51:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You reject Clifton because it is against your poorly defended stance. I reject Clifton because he’s a (pdf)[tabloid editor](http://dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf) relying on _media reports_ who provides no verification of his data, whatsoever. This is not a scientific, \* peer reviewed study\*. In other words, for the same reason that the CDC doesn’t include his “report” in their [dog bite bibliography](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm). Relying on Clifton is like relying on a media survey that concludes privileged caucasian children represent an “Everest-like peak” in kidnapping events, and that their frequency of involvement represents a “supernova” in proportion to under-priveleged, urban-dwelling minority children. There are fatal flaws in this methodology, which I assume you can spot. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/262 "2009-11-30T21:10:34Z")
…conducted by the esteemed editor of _The Weekly World News_, of course. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/263 "2009-12-01T02:38:43Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > I reject Clifton because he’s a (pdf)[tabloid editor](http://dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf) relying on _media reports_ who provides no verification of his data, whatsoever. This is not a scientific, \* peer reviewed study\*. In other words, for the same reason that the CDC doesn’t include his “report” in their [dog bite bibliography](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm). > > Relying on Clifton is like relying on a media survey that concludes privileged caucasian children represent an “Everest-like peak” in kidnapping events, and that their frequency of involvement represents a “supernova” in proportion to under-priveleged, urban-dwelling minority children. There are fatal flaws in this methodology, which I assume you can spot. A scientific. peer reviewed analysis? Ask much. Ask cops, ask mailmen , ask hospitals that put people back together. Ask someone who’s dog is traumatized for life why they forget to get DNA analysis of the dog that shredded their puppy. Ask anybody why they don’t trust pits. They are dangerous dogs. They are trained to fight. If you are at peace with that fine. Most of us are not.You are dancing in circles trying to pretend that pits are just another dog. You will only convince pit owners. People with no stake in the argument will know better. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/264 "2009-12-01T02:43:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > A scientific. peer reviewed analysis? Ask much. Not too much, I don’t think. [Here, for example, are several](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm). Hospitals that put people back together? [Sure, let’s see what they have to say on the subject!](http://www.plasticsurgery.org/Media/Press_Releases/Take_a_Bite_Out_of_Dog_Attacks_Says_ASPS_AVMA_and_CDC.html) Hmm… I wonder what a bunch of pediatricians would have to say? Let’s check them out, too, [just for the hell of it](http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-13-2009/0005025817&EDATE=). Oh, I forgot. They’re part of the “pit bull cover up” cabal, right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/265 "2009-12-01T04:45:55Z")
Question: tomorrow I twitch my nose and all the pit bulls in the world are turned into golden retrievers. Any dog that is part pit bull has that part turned into golden retrievers. All the people who own pits bulls and pit mixes now own golden retrievers and golden mixes. And treat them exactly the same. At the en of a year’s time do you think that the number of incidents—and their severity—involving these goldens would be the same as the past year with the pit bulls? Higher? Lower? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/266 "2009-12-01T06:46:09Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Not too much, I don’t think. [Here, for example, are several](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm). > Hospitals that put people back together? [Sure, let’s see what they have to say on the subject!](http://www.plasticsurgery.org/Media/Press_Releases/Take_a_Bite_Out_of_Dog_Attacks_Says_ASPS_AVMA_and_CDC.html) Hmm… I wonder what a bunch of pediatricians would have to say? Let’s check them out, too, [just for the hell of it](http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-13-2009/0005025817&EDATE=). > > Oh, I forgot. They’re part of the “pit bull cover up” cabal, right? Nothing you’ve posted addresses the nature of a pit bull attack. I could care less if a chow bites me because I can stomp it dead. You ignore the difference between a dog bite and a mauling. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/267 "2009-12-01T12:49:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Question: tomorrow I twitch my nose and all the pit bulls in the world are turned into golden retrievers. Any dog that is part pit bull has that part turned into golden retrievers. All the people who own pits bulls and pit mixes now own golden retrievers and golden mixes. And treat them exactly the same. At the en of a year’s time do you think that the number of incidents—and their severity—involving these goldens would be the same as the past year with the pit bulls? Higher? Lower? Heh. Magic and reality are two different things. It’s hard to say–goldens don’t like being locked in closets and fed gunpowder and beaten, or being left neglected on chains for years and years and years any better than pit dogs, do. I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to prove here, as we’ve already been over the notion that gundogs are more tractable and amenable than working-breeds. A golden-shaped strawman is no more effective than a poodle-shaped one. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/268 "2009-12-01T12:54:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nothing you’ve posted addresses the nature of a pit bull attack. I could care less if a chow bites me because I can stomp it dead. > > You ignore the difference between a dog bite and a mauling. You can, a five year old can’t. You ignore the difference between perceived risk to yourself and the actual reality of the majority of dog bite related fatalities. The links I’ve posted, relevant information from reliable expert authorities, all focuses on behavior-based strategies for dog bite prevention. Note that none of them say “avoid pit bulls like the plague”, yet they do all say “socialize your dog, interact safely and respectfully with your dog, supervise your dog around children, and don’t get more dog than you can handle”. That’s because the problem of dog bites and dog bite related fatalities _is not breed-specific._ ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/269 "2009-12-01T14:36:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nothing you’ve posted addresses the nature of a pit bull attack. I could care less if a chow bites me because I can stomp it dead. > > You ignore the difference between a dog bite and a mauling. LOL. Good luck with that stomping. A chow is up to 70 lbs of heavy bone and muscle. Their heads are proportionately huge. They are a fairly rare breed, but are known to have aggression issues, and have been implicated in several fatalities in the last few years. They were originally bred as a tough guarding and hunting breed, and have the personality to go with it - not usually very friendly dogs, apt to bite first and ask questions later, and require careful management. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/270 "2009-12-01T15:38:04Z")
Back when I had a shepherd and a beagle, a Chow got loose and attacked my beagle. The shepherd jumped in and kicked the Chows ass. It came about 3 times before he found out Gonzo owned him. He left. A pit would not have. It would have been bloody and ugly. The characteristics of the pit are such that it can escalate and get ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/271 "2009-12-01T15:45:39Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Back when I had a shepherd and a beagle, a Chow got loose and attacked my beagle. The shepherd jumped in and kicked the Chows ass. It came about 3 times before he found out Gonzo owned him. He left. A pit would not have. It would have been bloody and ugly. The characteristics of the pit are such that it can escalate and get ugly. How is this even remotely an argument? It’s an anecdote involving a chow chow, a GSD, and a beagle, and you’re saying that a hypothetical pit would have killed your dog? Do you have any proof? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/272 "2009-12-01T15:57:24Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Heh. Magic and reality are two different things. It’s hard to say–goldens don’t like being locked in closets and fed gunpowder and beaten, or being left neglected on chains for years and years and years any better than pit dogs, do. > I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to prove here, as we’ve already been over the notion that gundogs are more tractable and amenable than working-breeds. A golden-shaped strawman is no more effective than a poodle-shaped one. Another non-answer. Okay. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/273 "2009-12-01T16:08:32Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Back when I had a shepherd and a beagle, a Chow got loose and attacked my beagle. The shepherd jumped in and kicked the Chows ass. It came about 3 times before he found out Gonzo owned him. He left. A pit would not have. It would have been bloody and ugly. The characteristics of the pit are such that it can escalate and get ugly. [/QUOTE] Uh huh. How does your anecdotally-reported, mighty, heroic shepherd’s actions in the event of a _dog fight_ have anything to do with the capability or propensity of a neglected, unsocialized Chow Chow (or Malamute, Husky, or German Shepherd Dog) for killing small children in the event of an attack? I imagine Gonzo is better at defending himself than your average five year-old, but let’s see what you have to say. Maybe toddlers are better fighters than I think? ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/274 "2009-12-01T16:28:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Another non-answer. Okay. 😕 Do you just not know what a “strawman argument”\* is\*? Do you want to explain to me what soft gundogs have to do with a discussion about high-drive working breeds and their relative physical strength, tenacity, and potential propensity for human-targeted aggression? It doesn’t _matter_ what I think about how a golden retriever would react to being fed crack cocaine and hit with bike chains. What _does_ matter is that a well-socialized, thoroughly attended, and adequately managed dog of _any_ breed is substantially unlikely to be involved in a dog bite related fatality. The most common factor by an overwhelming degree in such events is not breed, but neglect and human mismanagement. By the way, I’m still waiting for a follow-up to your first magic-based hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/275 "2009-12-01T19:01:11Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Uh huh. How does your anecdotally-reported, mighty, heroic shepherd’s actions in the event of a _dog fight_ have anything to do with the capability or propensity of a neglected, unsocialized Chow Chow (or Malamute, Husky, or German Shepherd Dog) for killing small children in the event of an attack? > I imagine Gonzo is better at defending himself than your average five year-old, but let’s see what you have to say. Maybe toddlers are better fighters than I think? I am having trouble dumbing down arguments so you can understand them. Pits are relentless fighters and are able to attack while sustaining bad injuries. They are famous for coming back, over and over. Dogs that are trained to fight are bred and trained to enhance characteristics that do not make them friendly, loving and predictable pets. That would be pits. The Chow was not trained and bred to kill other dogs while taking serious injuries itself. They may have some nasty traits, but they don’t come close to Pits.Pits are different. Everybody but you seems to understand that . ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/276 "2009-12-01T19:06:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Dogs that are trained to fight are bred and trained to enhance characteristics that do not make them friendly, loving and predictable pets. That would be pits. Then, for the umpteenth time, I request you to please explain [this](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/12/22/vick.dogs/index.html). Failing that, can you please be quiet about stuff that you have no actual knowledge of? ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/277 "2009-12-01T19:39:56Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I am having trouble dumbing down arguments so you can understand them. Pits are relentless fighters and are able to attack while sustaining bad injuries. They are famous for coming back, over and over. I am having trouble dumbing down arguments so you can understand them. This also describes any working breed, big game, pastoral guardian, personal protection, or property guardian breed. German Shepherd Dogs and Belgian Malinois, for example, do the police and military choose them for use because if they attack an enemy, they’re easy to shake off and shoo away with a pat on the head? > [@](#): > > The Chow was not trained and bred to kill other dogs while taking serious injuries itself. No, not to kill other dogs, just big game and _human beings_. Thirty or forty years ago “everybody knew” everything you’re saying was true for a certain breed of dog, only it was your beloved Gonzo in the hysterics’ crosshairs. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/278 "2009-12-01T19:56:47Z")
Hell not to belabor the point, but when Pits were first allowed to be shown ,at the turn of the 1900s ,a pit had to have won 3 fights before he could show. No other dog has ever needed that to qualify them. So you figure out what the breeders were interested in. You tell me what that says about the breed. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/279 "2009-12-01T19:59:44Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Thirty or forty years ago “everybody knew” everything you’re saying was true for a certain breed of dog, only it was your beloved Gonzo in the hysterics’ crosshairs. This needs to be said about twice a page in every one of these threads. Pits are the dog _du jour_ to be hysterically afraid of. After the GSD it was Dobies, if I recall correctly. Then Rottweilers. Tell my lazy ass bitch Chi Chi she’s a scary attack dog. Half the time she can’t be bothered to stand up to bark. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/280 "2009-12-01T20:02:02Z")
You know, for knowledgeable German Shepherd Dog breeders, a GSD has to be able to savagely and relentlessly attack a human being, despite clubbings and beatings, to keep fighting and fighting and fighting that person to the death. So, you figure out what the breeders are interested in. You tell me what that says about the breed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682.md?page=15)