# The "Pit Bull" Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682 "2009-11-23T19:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/281 "2009-12-01T20:02:59Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Hell not to belabor the point, but when Pits were first allowed to be shown ,at the turn of the 1900s ,a pit had to have won 3 fights before he could show. I don’t suppose there is a chance in Hell that you have a cite for that, is there? Or a cite that anything like that has existed in the last fifty years? ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/282 "2009-12-01T20:10:04Z")
And failing to acknowledge that such a standard hasn’t existed in the later half of the past _century_, I don’t suppose there’s a chance in hell gonzomax would acknowledge that many breeds are _currently_ required by parent clubs to pass battle-related working standards before breeding, including the breeds which pass battle-related working tests by demonstrating proficiency at _attacking human beings_. Irrelevant, though. Pits are Satan dogs. Pure eeeevil! ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/283 "2009-12-01T23:14:13Z")
This thread is making me want a t-shirt that says ‘Pits are different’. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/284 "2009-12-01T23:42:47Z")
Oh man, sign me up 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/285 "2009-12-02T01:03:33Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > This thread is making me want a t-shirt that says ‘Pits are different’. It should say Pits are different and you know why ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/286 "2009-12-02T01:06:46Z")
I think it should say “Pits are _different!!!_” just to be sure we hit the right notes of fervor and hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/287 "2009-12-03T02:48:14Z")
The shirt should have tooth marks and red color splotches all over it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/288 "2009-12-03T06:45:04Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > You know, for knowledgeable German Shepherd Dog breeders, a GSD has to be able to savagely and relentlessly attack a human being, despite clubbings and beatings, to keep fighting and fighting and fighting that person to the death. So, you figure out what the breeders are interested in. You tell me what that says about the breed. Err…what? Doubtless you can cite something to this effect but I’d really like to see it. I have had GSDs my whole life. Many came from breeders and not a one ever mentioned their dogs were best because their dogs could savagely and relentlessly attack a human being. Not saying a GSD couldn’t be trained to do so. Still, dogs used in police work are never trained to savage a human. Indeed they learn to straddle a fine line between catching bad guys and not tearing them to shreds once caught. It is a testament to their intelligence and temperament that they can use appropriate force and not go with instinct to tear the perp’s throat out. ---
**Author:** ![independentminded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed8c4c/32.png) [@independentminded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/independentminded)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/289 "2009-12-03T06:52:19Z")
> [@valleyofthedolls](#): > > I buy into because Hearne makes a good argument for it with documentation I can follow. I buy into because it explains why people like you are so desperate to believe pit bulls are killing machines despite all availalable evidence to the contrary. I buy into it because I don’t believe an availability heuristic proves anything other than its believer is completely out of touch with reality. I buy into it because the media always seems to mention race and class when discussing pit bulls. I buy into it because people like gonzomax think their owners are scary and to be avoided. > > And I buy into it because you would rather believe a 40lb dog is more capable of tearing through a goat’s thigh bone than an 80lb dog. > > Is this a whoosh? That was exactly my point. Well, I still disagree with your point(s), and stand by what I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![independentminded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed8c4c/32.png) [@independentminded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/independentminded)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/290 "2009-12-03T06:56:24Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Again… _who_ cited poodles, here? **You** did!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/291 "2009-12-03T07:56:27Z")
I’m surprised no one has posted [this](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6693836/Four-year-old-boy-mauled-to-death-by-family-dog.html). A four-year-old boy was mauled to death by his family’s bull terrier-type dog at his grandmother’s house, which police had been warned was allegedly being used for dog breeding but failed to investigate. \ The boys’ mother and John-Paul’s father John Massey, who live in the Liverpool area, were on a night out when the attack happened. Neighbours said the dog was a “ferocious” creature. One, Lawrence Crewe, described how he heard “hellish” barking coming from the property after midnight. Mr Crew, 53, said: "We heard terrible barking that went on for more than 20 minutes. It was a hellish, blood-chilling noise, and we wondered what could be going-on. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/292 "2009-12-03T15:35:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Err…what? > > Doubtless you can cite something to this effect but I’d really like to see it. > > I have had GSDs my whole life. Many came from breeders and not a one ever mentioned their dogs were best because their dogs could savagely and relentlessly attack a human being. Forgive me for being unclear–it was a bit of tongue-in-cheek hyperbole. I wasn’t talking about your average Joe Blow AKC GSD breeder, but high-level protection and sportwork breeders producing dogs appropriate for police, military, sportwork and protection work. A dog that can control himself and not tear out a perp’s throat can, and does, still savagely and relentlessly attack. He’s just been taught to control himself in the heat of battle and only apply as much force as is necessary, on the target spots his handler has taught him to grip. Without that training and socialization, left neglected on a chain, beaten, locked in a closet, and so on, I suspect a different outcome… reflected by the GSD’s significant presence on the fatality lists, during the time period when they were the dog of choice for such scumbags. Do I think their appearance on such lists (or anything about their personality traits or breeding history) makes them “savage killers”? No, absolutely not, the comment was ridiculous mirroring of **gonzomax** ’s fervent hysteria on the topic of pit bulls, in a (in all likelihood, useless) tongue-in-cheek attempt to get him to see the illogicality and hypocrisy in his anti-pit hatred. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/293 "2009-12-03T15:41:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m surprised no one has posted [this](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6693836/Four-year-old-boy-mauled-to-death-by-family-dog.html). > > A four-year-old boy was mauled to death by his family’s bull terrier-type dog at his grandmother’s house, which police had been warned was allegedly being used for dog breeding but failed to investigate. > \ > The boys’ mother and John-Paul’s father John Massey, who live in the Liverpool area, were on a night out when the attack happened. > > Neighbours said the dog was a “ferocious” creature. > > One, Lawrence Crewe, described how he heard “hellish” barking coming from the property after midnight. > > Mr Crew, 53, said: "We heard terrible barking that went on for more than 20 minutes. It was a hellish, blood-chilling noise, and we wondered what could be going-on. A tragic accident waiting to happen\*. If the dog was such a monster, I wonder why it hadn’t attacked the child before it did? Was it evilly scheming and waiting for its opportunity? - But not because of the breed of dog, but because of the irresponsibility of the owners and guardians of the child. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/294 "2009-12-03T15:44:34Z")
> [@independentminded](#): > > **You** did!! > > 🙂 😕 Are you high or just incredibly stupid? Would you mind showing me where? Aside from my mention of poodles in the discussion of how breeding pit-type dogs does not produce poodle-type dogs, the first poodle-shaped strawman I see came from **magellan01** on the\* first page\*. **rhubarbarin** mentioned her own problem with aggressive standard poodle in her neighborhood, **dropzone** mentioned an unprovoked attack by a toy poodle, **Magiver** referred to being able to punt poodles, and after that, gonzomax set himself up several poodle-shaped strawmen… which is when I started asking the question. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/295 "2009-12-03T16:26:31Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m surprised no one has posted [this](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6693836/Four-year-old-boy-mauled-to-death-by-family-dog.html). I’m surprised no one posted [this](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/pennsylvania/20091117_Man_arraigned_in_dog_attack_on_5-year-old_girl.html) or [this](http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/136286) or [this](http://www.nbc33tv.com/news/dogs-kill-child).\* Isn’t it interesting how in all of those reports, they’re careful not to use words like “savage” and “mauling”? Isn’t it interesting how, in every case, they’re careful to talk about the “accident”, how statistically anomalous such serious attacks are by any breed, or to point out the different ways in which the owner fucked up? Isn’t it interesting that in the report on chows, though it mentions their breeding history and volitile nature, the reporter is careful to highlight how breed can’t be blamed here? Isn’t it interesting how that last report doesn’t even mention the breed of dogs (they were boxers, by the way), and almost no other reports on the attack appear to exist on the internet? How do you think any of those reports would read, had it been a “pit bull” that went straight for a child’s throat, chomped an infant’s skull, or “savagely mauled” little Michael Landy as he played in his yard? Isn’t it interesting that the report from Liverpool was broadcast world-wide with incredibly sensationalistic language? Isn’t it interesting that the first and only focus is on hyping up the _dog_ involved? Also, that the breed of dog has been reported variously as a “pitbull”, a “pit bull”, a “bull terrier” and a “bulldog cross-breed”? Whatever the breed of dog turns out to be, the reporters sure didn’t wait to get their facts straight before announcing it. It’s a sad event, but also another great example of the media hysteria around “pit bull” type dogs. \*actually, no I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/296 "2009-12-03T17:27:38Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > 😕 > Are you high or just incredibly stupid? Sorry–forgot which thread we were in. South Park reference inappropriate for GD. Apologies! ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/297 "2009-12-03T17:50:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Err…what? > > Doubtless you can cite something to this effect but I’d really like to see it. > > I have had GSDs my whole life. Many came from breeders and not a one ever mentioned their dogs were best because their dogs could savagely and relentlessly attack a human being. > > Not saying a GSD couldn’t be trained to do so. Still, dogs used in police work are never trained to savage a human. Indeed they learn to straddle a fine line between catching bad guys and not tearing them to shreds once caught. It is a testament to their intelligence and temperament that they can use appropriate force and not go with instinct to tear the perp’s throat out. Serious breeders of who are determined to maintain the working aspects of the breed, here and in Europe, are members of the United Schutzhund Club. Schutzhund was what originally established the popularity of the GSD in the US, from Germany. In Germany to this day, Schutzhund is the manager of the breed, and only dogs who are titled either in Schutzhund or have a herding qualification are allowed to be registered as purebred GSDs who will produce purebred puppies. Schutzhund dogs are trained in obedience, tracking, and protection and the current USA police dog training courses were modeled on Schutzhund training. Training and trials involves the dogs attacking persistently, bringing someone to the ground and keeping them there, and desisting on command - using live men in heavy padding. The dogs are carefully trained to only attack people’s arms, to reduce the chances of someone getting seriously injured or killed in a real life protection situation. A dog that bit elsewhere would be disqualified. Dogs that excel in Schutzhund often go on to ‘careers’ with police, detective forces, search and rescue, or as guard dogs. Dogs from Schutzhund breeders are where all the pups who go into police training programs are from (since police dogs are never bred). This wouldn’t be something your average American show breeder, or an even more average breeder who has a few AKC registered dogs, don’t show much, and sells their puppies to people in their area, would be involved in. But it’s the backbone of the breed, especially outside the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/298 "2009-12-03T18:09:32Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m surprised no one has posted [this](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6693836/Four-year-old-boy-mauled-to-death-by-family-dog.html). That’s a perfect example of the kind of report that makes _Clifton_ useless. Even though the breed of the dog _has not been released_, the reporter referred to it as a “pit bull type” leading readers such as yourself to think of it as a pit bull and and perpetuate the stereotype by posting such crap. Now the dog may well be a pit bull. I have no idea. But it behooves you to be sure of your facts before posting them. And the only fact you know is that some reporter called it a pit bull type. Said reporter, for all that we know, never having laid eyes on the dog in question. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/299 "2009-12-03T18:21:13Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > I think it should say “Pits are _different!!!_” just to be sure we hit the right notes of fervor and hysteria. > [@gonzomax](#): > > The shirt should have tooth marks and red color splotches all over it. The scary thing is you’re serious, **gonzomax**. Look, repeating over and over again that pit bulls are relentless killing machines isn’t debating. You can say, “Everyone knows \_\_\_\_” and I can say, “No, that’s not true,” but where have we gotten? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682/300 "2009-12-03T18:28:02Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The scary thing is you’re serious, **gonzomax**. Look, repeating over and over again that pit bulls are relentless killing machines isn’t debating. You can say, “Everyone knows \_\_\_\_” and I can say, “No, that’s not true,” but where have we gotten? if you’re waiting for \*\*gonzomax \*\*to back up his absurd assertions with the slightest hint of evidence you need to pack a lunch and bring along a couple of good books. It ain’t happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pit-bull-myth/518682.md?page=16)