Approximately, yes. There averages about 16 dog bite related fatalities a year, which account for approximately .00002% of dog bite incidents. Even going by the worst statistics and including all dog bite related fatalities, getting killed by a pit bull is a pretty remote concern. Cite
When you look at the percentage of deaths by dog and then percentage of breed the pit bull stands out. You can then take your .00001% and extrapolate that against attacks in general and those that don’t kill but cause serious injury. Pit bulls are more aggressive from birth and when that is combined with the ability to cause harm represent a greater danger than other breeds.
On the Clifton report: I was wrong not to delve more thoroughly into the complete crapitude of it. Fortunately, someone’s already done the work for me 
Taken from the article I just linked above:
But that doesn’t prove anything. I don’t have a dog in this fight, but there’s no logic to this argument. I could come up with three stories of beagles attacking someone. Or labs, or St. Bernards, or German Shepherds. It wouldn’t prove that those breeds are different.
hey gonzo, even Golden Retrievers and Labradors kill people sometimes.
Look up the case of Julia Beck, killed at 87 by a dachshund and a labrador (originally the family blamed loose ‘pit bulls’ but it turned out that the dogs responsible were family pets). Or Lorraine May, also elderly, killed my dogs described as ‘Golden Retriever mix’ and Australian Shepherd mix’. Zane Earles, 2 months, killed by the family Lab. Justin Mozer, 6 weeks, killed by a Jack Russell.
In this case, the lab was only 6 weeks old himself: http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=8753165
That doesn’t seem too ‘different’ to me.
QFT
What a shame. Check the picture of Molly. She was so cute and friendly…Until she went berserk for no reason and then went all friendly again.
That is the problem with Pit Bulls.
Those are the numbers, and here’s why
Pit Bull Myth indeed :rolleyes:
It was more of a reaction to the same handwaving dismissal of any study that might say anything against NajaNivea’s favorite breed. She (he?) is acting as a True Believer, not merely unswayed by any evidence that might argue against her pet theory, but someone who dismisses it out of hand. THAT is the definition of a crackpot.
OTOH, the only dog to have attacked me unprovoked (yeah, I’m stupid and trusting around dogs) was a toy poodle. I was a paperboy and the owner said, “He must’ve seen you rolling up a newspaper and since that precedes him getting whacked…”
(Thanks, old and probably-dead bitch who’d be over 100 by now)
The little dog bit my knee. Drew blood but didn’t require stitches. I didn’t need to kill it to make it stop.
Quoting chapter and verse from the HSUS is akin to using PETA as a reliable source. Actually, I take that back, PETA is better, at the very least they don’t try and hide their agenda.
I’m pulling out Vicki Hearne again. She was an extremely well-respected dog trainer and author and served as an expert witness on dogs/dog behavior in several trials.
Hearne (in a book called “Bandit”) makes an excellent case for the HSUS deliberately creating a dog bite hysteria in the early '80’s (when there was no such thing) in order to raise money. Pit bulls were brought into their little campaign and the breed has been attacked ever since.
The HSUS is responsible for the thousands of pit bulls leading miserable lives in shelters and in the posession of garbage like Michael Vick and it is responsible for the thousands of dogs killed for no other reason than their breed.
Vicki Hearne? She of the poem “The Bull Terrier”?:
"Their legs and backs
Should seem to be
Merely the motive
Power for the low
Broad, implacable
Jaw. They will never
Hurt a child and never
Leave justice undone,
They are justice."
Yep, she wrote some poetry.
But her poetry isn’t particularly good so therefore anything she to say has no validation? Her years of experience and training and study are null and void?
And this board claims to fight ignorance?
How do you reconcile your post with this board’s motto? Shouldn’t you leave the logical fallacies behind especially when you are a moderator?
Your own cite shows 50% of the events involved pit bulls. You’re trying to downplay this by displaying it as a percentage of the population. in my area a man was attacked and killed by 2 pit bulls. A co-worker of mine was mauled by her own dog. I have a friend with a pit mix and that routinely attacked his other dogs with no obvious provocation. The neigbors behind me had a pit that got loose and attacked (get ready) another pit that was being walked by their owner(that was fun). The neighbor next to me (glad to see him move) had a pit that jumped into my yard and tried to attack me. Luckily I was able to shut the door before he could bite.
In short, every dog problem I’ve personally come across or read about in my paper involved a pit bull. It’s not that poodles don’t bite, it’s just the fact that most people can kick the shit out of them if they get out of hand. You don’t seem to get this reality of this at all. Pit Bulls are not only more aggressive then most dogs they are more dangerous when that aggression is manifested.
Oh, and one more thing.
If you google Vicke Hearne, the 3rd link to come up is her New York Times obituary. That obituary contains the poem you quoted. Your post seems to imply you’re familiar with her work
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/27/arts/vicki-hearne-who-saw-human-traits-in-pets-dies-at-55.html
but this doesn’t seem to be the case. And it’s also nice that you make fun of her poetry but neglect to mention she was a Stegner Fellow in poetry. That’s not an easy fellowship to obtain.
It’s also odd that though the obituary contains a laundry list of pretty impressive credentials, you chose to sweep them aside in favor of making fun of a poem you don’t care for. Please explain how that works.
How again is this board about fighting ignorance?
dropzone, I’ve spent so much time refuting stuff in this thread that I’ve been accused of spewing verbiage. I’ve referenced reputable sources everywhere they exist. The only thing I dismiss out of hand is the Clifton report… and for very good reason, as cited in the last article I’ve linked to. As ever… if you can provide any cite for your accusations, I’d like to hear it. Otherwise, it’s pretty goddamned offensive for you to come along and call me a liar and a crackpot, don’t you think?
Also, not that it’s in any way germane to the argument, I like pits very much, but I wouldn’t say they’re my “favorite” breed, if I have one. I don’t even own one. That doesn’t stop me from doing battle against an urban legend when it’s spewed forth with disgusting regularity on this site. I have something like twenty five years worth of experience handling dogs in several different professional contexts, I can’t even begin to guess how many over the years. I have a lot of relevant experience… and you’re damn right that makes me a “true believer” in the same sense that I’m a “true believer” in gravity, because I have much experience that such a force exists.
Everything I have said in this thread comes from many, many years of experience handling dogs of all breeds, types, and backgrounds, and especially a lot of years handling thousands upon thousands of random-source dogs, some small majority of them “pit type”.
I feel very confident in the assertions I’ve made, but as always I’m perfectly happy to have my mind changed in the face of good evidence to the contrary. I’ve yet to see it presented here, though. So far, just a lot of urban legend bullshit matched with personal anecdote. I keep wondering just exactly what the response would be to these same arguments being voiced in anti-vax or moon hoax threads. People would be cutting each other’s throats over this kind of spurious bullshit.
The Clifton report, yes. “My” cite. Did you happen to notice that he got his stats not from hospital records or any verifiable source, but mined from media reports?
How often do you think a lab mauling gets national news coverage, even when it happens?
Even using his horrifically skewed stats pits come in at **less than one percent of severe dog attacks annually. ** 49 out of 6000 people hospitalized every year, assuming we can trust Clifton’s numbers, which you so confidently assure me we can. You do the math.
Of course, I suppose that a report of severe dog attacks that includes breeds like “chox mix” and “buff mastiff” must surely have been conducted with nothing but the finest methodology. :rolleyes:
Actually, I read “Bandit” about ten years back, and was rather unimpressed. As far as her credentials go,
Pretty impressive credentials…but none of them have anything to do with expertise in the field we are talking about here.
Several cites have been proffered. You continue to act as is the only way a Pit can go bad is if its owner is bad. This may be true, but the lion’s share of the evidence says that the breed, as many owners train it, is unreliable and dangerous. We cannot ban people. We are stuck legislating against a breed of dog.
My daughter owns a bulldog-basset cross. His personality tends toward the basset side, but I was very concerned when he got loose and jumped into the mail lady’s van. Turns out he wanted love, but he noticed the girls playing soccer across the street. Running into practice he frightened some, but a coach kicked a ball toward me. Coach had no idea how wide he could open his jaws when Riley grabbed the ball and brought it back to him.
I do not know how reliable this mutt is, but I know not to trust him. In the mean time I can pretend he’s reliable, but only as far as I can reach him. Pits are like this: dogs bred for a purpose and one should never trust them to ignore their breeding. I consider you a sap who loves the way your own dogs act and who projects that onto all of the same breed, despite all studies that state otherwise.
What, we cannot ban people so now we must ban sports cars when bad drivers cause accidents in sports cars? There’s no way to legislate human behavior?
I consider you… something else entirely. I suppose you didn’t even notice that two sentences later I pointed out that I don’t even own a pit dog?
Your insights are *endlessly *fascinating.
I have no idea what you mean by “unimpressed.” Was the book to difficult for you to understand? Did you not care for her writing style? Did you disagree with her conclusions? If so, why?
I’ll admit it’s not the most user-friendly book. Her interests in linguistics might have been better served in a different format. But again, a book doesn’t have to be user-friendly to be correct (you understand that, right?). As far as I can see, her research and the arguments that spring from it are very thorough and well laid out. If you find fault with her documentation, please show me.
And the poem you quoted doesn’t appear in Bandit, so why bring it up at all if you weren’t trying to argue from ignorance?
The New York Times obituary also said:
“Victoria Elizabeth Hearne was born Feb. 13, 1946, in Austin, Tex. She worked as a self-employed animal trainer beginning in 1967.”
“In addition to ‘‘Adam’s Task,’’ she was the author of ‘‘Animal Happiness’’”
“Ms. Hearne, who trained animals and their owners at Silver Trails: The Animal Inn, turned her childhood love of dogs and horses into a life’s work and the foundation of a philosophy of human and animal relations and communication that was articulated in her best-known book, '‘Adam’s Task: Calling Animals by Name’”
Her life’s work was training animals. She wrote 3 well-respected books on her training philosophy. But let’s ignore that in favor of a silly poem
Look, I don’t even agree with most of her training methods (she was a Koehler trainer) but I can recognize an intelligent and fact-based argument when I see one. And Hearne does present an intelligent and fact-based argument with regards to the HSUS causing (to this day) a moral panic involving pit bulls. I can even look at the timeline she presents, do my own googling and see that it follows, almost to a T, something called the deviancy amplification spiral (Stanley Cohen, Folklores and Moral Panics) but that’s something for another post.
So you’ll have to forgive me if I take her word over someone who believes making fun of a poem is the best way to fight ignorance.