# The pitting of a bigoted Jew **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771 "2009-02-28T06:33:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/61 "2009-03-02T02:14:29Z")
Just curious, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/62 "2009-03-02T02:42:51Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I didn’t pick up that idea, but so what? Are you afraid to tell me what it means to be American? So you’d be fine with it if I told you that Americanness is measured by the degree of British heritage and commitment to Protestant Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/63 "2009-03-02T03:02:53Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > So you’d be fine with it if I told you that Americanness is measured by the degree of British heritage and commitment to Protestant Christianity? …except the US has an anti-British tradition and political secularism. It’s more like you saying that the Americanness is measured by commitment to political secularism. “But political secularism is good and necessary and important!” I hear you cry. Well, of course it is — but that’s just the point. Side note: Seriously, people, I love pork, but no, eating pork is not a fundamental right. It’s a political issue (in Turkey, too) purely because the level of its popularity shows the level to which the society has become secular. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/64 "2009-03-02T03:13:00Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > To be a bigot you don’t need to chase your neighbors out with burning crosses. It’s enough to say that it is “unfortunate” that they are in your neighborhood. > > Let’s try this… > > “Unfortunately, statues of Ganesh are not hard to find.” > “Unfortunately, there are many kosher restaurants in the area.” > “Unfortunately, there are shops that open on Sundays.” > “Unfortunately, you can buy clothing that exposes women’s faces.” > > Sounds kind of bigoted, huh? Quoted so it will maybe sink in on the second reading. Would you “it’s no big deal” people be OK with a poster saying things like this? To make it more blatant, try “Unfortunately, there are lots of blacks in this neighborhood.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/65 "2009-03-02T03:15:30Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > …except the US has an anti-British tradition and political secularism. And what about the tradition of non-kosher-keeping Jews? My understanding is that Reform Jews traditionally reject kosher dietary laws on principle. Are Reform Jews not Jewish enough for Israel? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/66 "2009-03-02T03:26:23Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And what about the tradition of non-kosher-keeping Jews? My understanding is that Reform Jews traditionally reject kosher dietary laws on principle. Are Reform Jews not Jewish enough for Israel? I don’t have enough knowledge of Judaism to properly answer this (saddest part is, I’ve taken part of a class on Judaism, but the prof almost solely talked about daily practices, rather than theology and sects). Still, I suspect that the pittee was making a more general (and offhand, we might add) complaint about the secularization of her country, which is far more reasonable in a country with a more religious identity than the US. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/67 "2009-03-02T03:35:04Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > I don’t have enough knowledge of Judaism to properly answer this (saddest part is, I’ve taken part of a class on Judaism, but the prof almost solely talked about daily practices, rather than theology and sects). Still, I suspect that the pittee was making a more general (and offhand, we might add) complaint about the secularization of her country, which is far more reasonable in a country with a more religious identity than the US. She’s being bigoted about her particular practice of judaism vis a vis other Jews. Therefore, the religious history of Israel as a Jewish nation doesn’t make her case any better. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/68 "2009-03-02T03:49:02Z")
This is a person who recently moved to Israel as an adult and is taking it upon herself to judge her fellow Israelis and Jews as being insufficiently Jewish for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/69 "2009-03-02T03:57:16Z")
First of all, **Shinna Minna Ma** is a male, as he stated that he hasn’t had to wear a tie since making aliyah. Second, as has been noted, wishing for a greater level of observance of kashrut is obviously not talking about non-Jews, who are neither required to keep kosher (unless in a kosher home) nor are particularly exhorted to convert to Judaism. (Jews do not proselytize.) So lamenting the lack of _shomer kashrut_ in Israel is lamenting the state of Judaism, his own faith, a statement on the lack of robustness of Judaism. It has nothing to do with non-Jews, who have their own restaurants and their own groceries in Israel. The statues of Ganesh thing is an inapt comparison. Someone talking about the availability of statues of Ganesh would not be doing so as a Hindu, they’d be someone who disliked living near Hindus. It’s an outside _criticism_, which is always different from an internal observation. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/70 "2009-03-02T04:00:44Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > First of all, **Shinna Minna Ma** is a male, as he stated that he hasn’t had to wear a tie since making aliyah. > > Second, as has been noted, wishing for a greater level of observance of kashrut is obviously not talking about non-Jews, who are neither required to keep kosher (unless in a kosher home) nor are particularly exhorted to convert to Judaism. (Jews do not proselytize.) So lamenting the lack of _shomer kashrut_ in Israel is lamenting the state of Judaism, his own faith, a statement on the lack of robustness of Judaism. It has nothing to do with non-Jews, who have their own restaurants and their own groceries in Israel. > > The statues of Ganesh thing is an inapt comparison. Someone talking about the availability of statues of Ganesh would not be doing so as a Hindu, they’d be someone who disliked living near Hindus. It’s an outside _criticism_, which is always different from an internal observation. He’s being bigoted about his particular practice of judaism vis a vis other Jews. Here’s another example to try on for size: “Unfortunately, other of my fellow white people think it’s OK to let blacks join the country club.” You think this is OK because it’s a criticism about white people from a white person? ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/71 "2009-03-02T04:06:45Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Quoted so it will maybe sink in on the second reading. Would you “it’s no big deal” people be OK with a poster saying things like this? To make it more blatant, try “Unfortunately, there are lots of blacks in this neighborhood.” But that’s different—people can’t change the fact that they are black or white or gay or straight or male or female (which is why I do think Judaism is a bit bigoted as a religion, at least in its traditional form, because it pretty much claims that Jews are the chosen master race). Valete, Vox Imperatoris ETA: Merely expressing an opinion about what people should or should not do with backing from religion or a moral standpoint is not bigotry in and of itself. It may be misguided, even ridiculous, but it is not bigotry. For a secular example, is PETA being bigoted when it tells people not to eat or exploit animals in any way because it is evil? I certainly disagree with them, but I don’t think they’re bigots. Is **Der Trihs** being a bigot when he ridicules Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/72 "2009-03-02T04:31:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Quoted so it will maybe sink in on the second reading. Would you “it’s no big deal” people be OK with a poster saying things like this? To make it more blatant, try “Unfortunately, there are lots of blacks in this neighborhood.” Oh come on. I live in a small town and there was recently some community outrage over a porn shop opening up. I’d say that’s a more fair comparison. I thought the whole porn shop scandal was rather silly, but although complaining about a business practice that one finds offensive (but is not actually dangerous) may be narrow-minded it’s not even remotely the same as wanting to drive out people with the “wrong” skin color. It doesn’t sound like **Shinna Minna Ma** is organizing demonstrations outside the pork restaurants, calling government offices to demand a change in local laws, or writing angry letters to the editor. He didn’t even say that serving pork was horrible, evil, sinful, disgraceful, shameful, abominable, etc. I could see getting upset about something like _that_, but instead he just mentioned that he thought it was _unfortunate_ that pork-serving restaurants are so common. That’s about as mild an expression of disapproval as one could hope for. _I_ think it’s unfortunate that skinny jeans are coming back in, does that make me morally equivalent to a Ku Klux Klan member? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/73 "2009-03-02T04:48:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And what about the tradition of non-kosher-keeping Jews? My understanding is that Reform Jews traditionally reject kosher dietary laws on principle. Are Reform Jews not Jewish enough for Israel? Reform Jews can eat anywhere they like without compromising themselves. Kosher keeping Jews can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/74 "2009-03-02T05:01:56Z")
“Unfortunately” implies that the speaker regrets the situation but has no plans to do anything about it. There’s a connotation of resignation. I don’t give a good god damn what your beliefs are as long as you don’t do anything about them. “Unfortunately, there are a lot of blacks in the neighborhood.” Yeah, great, you’re kind of bigoted, but as long as you don’t harass them or join the KKK or whatever, it’s not worth getting worked up over. Seriously, this is getting close to thought policing, jumping on someone for expressing a belief they don’t intend to act on. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/75 "2009-03-02T05:13:50Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And what about the tradition of non-kosher-keeping Jews? My understanding is that Reform Jews traditionally reject kosher dietary laws on principle. Are Reform Jews not Jewish enough for Israel? Israel’s state religious authority is entirely Orthodox and they loathe the Reformim. I have this up close and much more personally than I ever wanted. They only allow that the Reform (and Conservatives - who are, despite the name, considered a fairly liberal movement) are Jews because they would lose the support of American Jewry if they didn’t. Due to several accidents of history, the large majority of American Jews are either Reform or Conservative, but almost no Israelis are, and the few that are are almost always immigrants from North America (who don’t make up a very large percentage of the population, as you will not be shocked to hear). Since Israel doesn’t have civil marriage, you cannot have a Reform or Conservative wedding in Israel. You have to be A-OK under the Orthodox rabbinate to have a Jewish wedding. This doesn’t just apply to the Reform or Conservatives; Ethiopian Jews have also been ruled to be not Jewish enough to qualify (unless they officially convert to Orthodox Judaism, of course). It’s been years since I learned this, so maybe it’s no longer true, but definitely in the past, the only rabbinate that considered the Ethiopians to be Jewish enough to get married was that of the city of Netanya. So all the Ethiopians would go there to get married. FWIW, I have two Jewish grandparents and could make aliyah if I chose, but if I did my ID card would name me a gentile - even though the Reform movement would consider me a Jew any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/76 "2009-03-02T05:14:04Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > “Unfortunately” implies that the speaker regrets the situation but has no plans to do anything about it. There’s a connotation of resignation. So I am stuck here agreeing with \*\*Rand\_Rover \*\*and **The Flying Dutchman**? I’ve read _The Bible_ and there is NOTHING in it, Old or New Testament, Torah vs Everything Else, that would leave me in such a state. I mean. doesn’t He KNOW these guys? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/77 "2009-03-02T05:16:25Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > But that’s different—people can’t change the fact that they are black or white or gay or straight or male or female (which is why I do think Judaism is a bit bigoted as a religion, at least in its traditional form, because it pretty much claims that Jews are the chosen master race). It’s really late or I would write more, but this is a SERIOUS SERIOUS misunderstanding of what “chosen people” means. I bet there’s a useful article on Wikipedia about it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/78 "2009-03-02T05:18:07Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Reform Jews can eat anywhere they like without compromising themselves. Kosher keeping Jews can’t. So? No one is forcing him to go to these places. There are plenty of kosher restaurants and shops for him-he’s just in a snit because there are OTHER CHOICES AVAILABLE!!! No, he’s not out doing anything about it-but it still doesn’t mean he’s not an ass for thinking so, **Bosstone**. If someone came here whining about blacks being in the neighborhood, or non-Christians even if they weren’t going to do anything-we’d still Pit them, would we not? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/79 "2009-03-02T05:19:33Z")
**Kyla** , my friend, **Vox** is a bit of an idiot. Ignore him, for now. We’re still working on him. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771/80 "2009-03-02T05:25:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So? No one is forcing him to go to these places. There are plenty of kosher restaurants and shops for him-he’s just in a snit because there are OTHER CHOICES AVAILABLE!!! > > No, he’s not out doing anything about it-but it still doesn’t mean he’s not an ass for thinking so, **Bosstone**. If someone came here whining about blacks being in the neighborhood, or non-Christians even if they weren’t going to do anything-we’d still Pit them, would we not? You’re possibly right, but I just can’t get worked up about this. Being annoyed that non-kosher places exist in a Jewish state is nowhere near on the same level as being annoyed that you have to share a street with blacks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-a-bigoted-jew/487771.md?page=5)