# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/241 "2013-07-22T00:09:04Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Well, Zimmerman himself was concerned about saying his address out loud in case Martin could hear, so it’s not so strange that Martin might not want to go home: it’s not as though home has some magical shield to protect you no matter what. Home invasion anyone? Still does not justify him punching GZ. If GZ broke into his house, it would. > [@](#): > > Secondly… would you be as dismissive if Martin were a woman? It’s not a matter of being “dismissive”. I don’t believe anyone gets to punch anyone else just because that person is following you in a neighborhood. And I think the law agrees with me SYG or no SYG. > [@](#): > > Because as a woman, I can tell you that Zimmerman’s behavior would have freaked me out completely, and if I asked him flat out “why are you following me?” and the best he could do in reply was “why are you here” it would send a chill down my spine because I would read it as avoidance, and that he had an agenda. If I were a young black male I can see feeling exactly the same. Well, we don’t allow people to punch other people because they are “freaked out”, and and I think that’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/242 "2013-07-22T02:11:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Still does not justify him punching GZ. If GZ broke into his house, it would. > It’s not a matter of being “dismissive”. I don’t believe anyone gets to punch anyone else just because that person is following you in a neighborhood. And I think the law agrees with me SYG or no SYG. > Well, we don’t allow people to punch other people because they are “freaked out”, and and I think that’s a good thing. I think it’s a case-by-case, actually. One woman’s “freak out” is another woman’s reasonable belief she’s about to be raped. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/243 "2013-07-22T02:24:33Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I think it’s a case-by-case, actually. One woman’s “freak out” is another woman’s reasonable belief she’s about to be raped. I suggest you not act on that impulse if you are followed by someone under the circumstances we are discussing. You’ll end up on the wrong side of the law. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/244 "2013-07-22T02:59:02Z")
I personally would rather be on the wrong side of the law than held captive in some guy’s basement for 10 years, thanks. I’ll take my chances in court, should this situation occur. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/245 "2013-07-22T03:06:16Z")
> [@bump](#): > > So we’ve recently had the acquittal of George Zimmerman for the 2nd degree murder of Trayvon Martin. And a lot of people are outraged that he wasn’t convicted because Zimmerman did a lot of actions of questionable merit prior to the actual shooting. > > What’s pissing me off is that the majority of the people wailing and gnashing their teeth apparently have NO clue how the legal system works and think that Zimmerman should have been convicted not because he broke Florida law, but because they didn’t like what he did. > > Fact: Nothing Zimmerman did prior to the shooting was illegal. Even if he decided that Martin was sketchy because he was black, and ambushed him to confront him, none of that’s illegal. Sketchy? Yes. In poor judgement? Yes. Illegal? No. > > Fact: The case entirely hinged upon the notion that the possibility that Zimmerman feared for his life, and that this fear cast reasonable doubt upon the charge that Zimmerman murdered Martin in a non-premeditated way (2nd degree). Fact: If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, this verdict goes the other way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/246 "2013-07-22T03:07:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fact: If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, this verdict goes the other way. Your speculation is a “fact”? Uhm, no. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/247 "2013-07-22T03:17:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fact: If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, this verdict goes the other way. Fact: If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, Zimmerman is acquitted nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/248 "2013-07-22T03:43:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fact: If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, this verdict goes the other way. Wrong. If the thug is white and the shooter is black, the shooter is [acquitted as well](http://www.decodedscience.com/roderick-scott-the-black-george-zimmerman-acquitted-of-murder/33569). And the shooter didn’t even get beaten up. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/249 "2013-07-22T03:52:30Z")
It doesn’t really help to call Martin a thug. Yes, he had some behavior problems that seem to include petty theft (probable) and marijuana use. There’s a long list of such crimes in my youth and several more serious. I was very lucky in that I was never caught. I’ve argued here due to uncertainty about what happened it was legally appropriate to acquit Zimmerman, but that is not the same as saying we know enough to condemn Martin’s actions. I’ve chastised people for assuming if you disbelieve Zimmerman’s account that is itself evidence of a narrative never presented. You shouldn’t take a situation so unknowable and make such condemnations of either party. If you want to condemn either for their known actions, fine. But I don’t see anything from his known for sure actions that night that justify labeling Martin a thug. It is good to post that story from New York, though. I naively hope that the more familiar people are with how difficult self defense cases can be to prosecute, and the outcomes of similar cases they may at least begin to feel the verdict was broadly in line with American law and not the product of racism. Now, maybe that will still leave them condemning the law, and that is valid for any citizen to disagree with the law–but at least they’d have a recognition the Zimmerman case wasn’t some aberration under the law. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/250 "2013-07-22T03:57:39Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It doesn’t really help to call Martin a thug. Yes, he had some behavior problems that seem to include petty theft (probable) and marijuana use. There’s a long list of such crimes in my youth and several more serious. I was very lucky in that I was never caught. Beating up on someone who approaches you, even in the dark and at night, is thuggish behavior. When someone comes out and says “Stop it, I am calling 911”, not stopping to beat up on someone is thuggish behavior. A thug is as thug does. > [@](#): > > If you want to condemn either for their known actions, fine. But I don’t see anything from his known for sure actions that night that justify labeling Martin a thug. The two above are “known actions”. Especially the second one. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/251 "2013-07-22T04:04:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fact: If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, this verdict goes the other way. Fact? Really? Seriously? Based on what? Your belief that FLA Gov. Rick Scott, AG Pam Bondi, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, prosecutors Bernie de la Rionda, John Guy, and Rich Mantei are all racists? If GZ were black, the racist Sharpton wouldn’t have fired up the lynch mob-types. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/252 "2013-07-22T05:25:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. If the thug is white and the shooter is black, the shooter is [acquitted as well](http://www.decodedscience.com/roderick-scott-the-black-george-zimmerman-acquitted-of-murder/33569). And the shooter didn’t even get beaten up. From the above link: > [@](#): > > **Major Differences Between the Martin and Cervini Deaths** > > At the time Zimmerman decided to leave his vehicle and follow Martin, he had no proof the 17-year-old was engaged in illegal activity. There was never any evidence that Martin was doing anything other than returning to the residence where he was staying after a trip to a convenience store. > > Scott actually observed Cervini and the other two breaking into cars at the time he confronted them, unlike Martin who was simply walking when Zimmerman began following him. > > Unlike George Zimmerman, Scott was immediately arrested after the shooting and charged with murder. A grand jury later reduced the charge to first-degree manslaughter. The jury deliberated for about 19 hours before rendering a verdict of not guilty on December 18, 2009. From another [article](http://themartialist.net/?p=306): > [@](#): > > He was, he testified, aware that he was outnumbered, and that is key to this issue as a self-defense scenario. When outnumbered, even if those facing you are unarmed, you are generally justified to use a force multiplier — a weapon — to defend yourself. One of these things is not like the other. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/253 "2013-07-22T05:35:19Z")
> [@camille](#): > > One of these things is not like the other. Of course, because every case is exactly like another one. He maybe was outnumbered - but only one of the thugs came at him, not all three, and the shooter suffered no injuries. And hey - aren’t the “anti-racists” claiming that no way a black man can shoot a 17-year-old white boy in this country and be acquitted because of self-defense? Well here is the case where that happened. And I fully support the verdict. Old racist me. ---
**Author:** ![fudrucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fudrucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fudrucker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/254 "2013-07-22T05:44:57Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What’s pissing me off is that the majority of the people wailing and gnashing their teeth apparently have NO clue how the legal system works and think that Zimmerman should have been convicted not because he broke Florida law, but because they didn’t like what he did. What else would you expect from these pack dog liberals on here? Do you honestly think they’re interested in the rule of law or the decision of a jury? C’mon. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/255 "2013-07-22T05:45:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course, because every case is exactly like another one. He maybe was outnumbered - but only one of the thugs came at him, not all three, and the shooter suffered no injuries. And hey - aren’t the “anti-racists” claiming that no way a black man can shoot a 17-year-old white boy in this country and be acquitted because of self-defense? Well here is the case where that happened. And I fully support the verdict. Old racist me. I wouldn’t call you old. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/256 "2013-07-22T08:18:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fact: If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, this verdict goes the other way. Fact: with identical evidence, but reversed races, this verdict stays the same. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/257 "2013-07-22T11:53:04Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > \ > And I leave to each individual to decide for themselves, using their own good brains, what the truth actually is. Stoid, after reading your pontificitions and their rebuttals/disprovings, if I’m ever _wrongly_ arrested for a crime, I pray, **pray** I tell you (and I’m not a religious person) that you are the lead prosecutor. Hell, if I’m ever arrested for a crime I _ **did** _ commit, I will petition, nay, _beg_ that you be my prosecutor (but **not** a juror). ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/258 "2013-07-22T13:30:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s clear even from the beginning that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin. That’s against the consensus morality, but it’s not against the law. The law is out of step with morality. > > What you really don’t seem to get is that a lot of people would make racism a crime, and we see it as a failure of the system that it isn’t. I know I’d rather have racists in jail than people who do drugs, for sure. Wow. You want to have the thought police literally put people in jail because they don’t have the same liberal worldview as you do. Very scary stuff. > [@BigT](#): > > And, dude, you just admitted to fucking racism, so shut up. So, lock him up and throw away the key, right? How would these gulags work that you are proposing exactly. Should we imprison pro second amendment people for a fixed length of time? Or until they are re-educated? Can they commute their sentences by simply agreeing to a lobotomy? You’re really off in land of the apes territory on this one, comrade. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/259 "2013-07-22T13:31:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Fact? > > Really? Seriously? Because he really, really, really feels that way. That makes it a fact. That’s how many of the pro-Martin people seem to operate. They just **know** things. Don’t need proof. It seems to bother them that the justice system is based on things like proof and evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/260 "2013-07-22T13:52:52Z")
> [@bump](#): > > the whole court case hinged upon whether or not Zimmerman feared for his life during the fight prior to the shooting. We’ll never actually know what happened, but the evidence and testimony apparently put enough questions in the jury’s minds that Zimmerman didn’t just hunt down Martin and shoot him, and that possibly (reasonable doubt) he felt that he was defending himself. > > So if people understand that, how the fuck can they be so pissed off about the verdict? Because they’re not conflating Justice with Legality? We’ll never know what actually happened because the only other witness is dead. The evidence is being provided by the defendant. Legally, there isn’t anything else to be done, you can only work with the available evidence. Legally, this was done (more or less) by the book. The prosecution wasn’t able to present enough evidence, the defense was able to introduce doubt, Z. is acquitted. Whether or not “Justice was Served” has to do with what actually happened, not what the prosecution is able to prove. What actually happened is known only to Zimmerman, the rest of us get to use our imaginations, unless you’re buying his version wholesale. If Justice is simply what the law requires and allows, then do we file [this case](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=697033&highlight=dubai) under the Justice column? Acquitted doesn’t mean he didn’t do anything wrong, it just means the State couldn’t prove a crime to the necessary level of confidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=14)