# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/261 "2013-07-22T14:06:41Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Wow. > > You want to have the thought police literally put people in jail because they don’t have the same liberal worldview as you do. > > Very scary stuff. > > So, lock him up and throw away the key, right? > > How would these gulags work that you are proposing exactly. Should we imprison pro second amendment people for a fixed length of time? Or until they are re-educated? Can they commute their sentences by simply agreeing to a lobotomy? > > You’re really off in land of the apes territory on this one, comrade. Actually… liberals ( not meaning the present American definition, but the great tradition ) have rather a taste for forcible reeducation of recalcitrant dissidents. I had to look up an old blog post of mine to find it, but in 2004, a Dr. Alan Young wrote to the Toronto Star on what to do with neo-nazi revisionists, instead of sniggering at them, and general mean old racists: _“Just as some cancers require invasive surgery, the hate crime needs intrusive measures. The usual out-of-sight, out-of-mind approach to modern punishment just won’t work in this case. For crimes of supreme stupidity we need Clockwork Orange justice — strapping the hate criminal into a chair for an interminable period, and keeping his eyes wide-open with metal clamps so he cannot escape from an onslaught of cinematic imagery carefully designed to break his neurotic attachment to self-induced intellectual impairment.”_ \*K… \* _backs away smilie_ ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/262 "2013-07-22T14:13:46Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Because they’re not conflating Justice with Legality? > > Acquitted doesn’t mean he didn’t do anything wrong, it just means the State couldn’t prove a crime to the necessary level of confidence. But they are conflating the two, and that’s what’s so stupid. Juries are bound by rules- they have to consider the question at hand and the evidence presented, and rule based on that. There’s not much, if any room for a jury to free-lance and decide in the name of “justice” that they’re going to find someone guilty or not because of things not pertinent to the question at hand and the evidence presented. That’s why juries get sequestered, and are shut off from the media, and why the voir dire process is used- ideally we want a jury that’s impartial. So in this case, the jury came up with a verdict based on the question at hand and the evidence presented. It didn’t line up with a lot of people’s ideas of justice, I’ll grant you. Here’s the important part though- it’s not the jury’s fault that it doesn’t line up. They likely made the correct legal decision based on everything. If the justice folks should be mad about anything, they should be mad about the prosecutors bringing effectively un-winnable charges against Zimmerman, or at the State for having laws that allow this kind of thing to go this way. That’s where the injustice is, not way down at the bottom when the jury makes a reasonable decision based on the evidence and laws as they are- like you said, the State couldn’t prove a crime to the necessary level of confidence. Anger at the jury’s decision is patently ignorant and annoys me- what were the jurors supposed to do? The anger should be at the prosecution and the State, not at the jury’s decision. ---
**Author:** ![fudrucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fudrucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fudrucker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/263 "2013-07-22T14:37:40Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Anger at the jury’s decision is patently ignorant and annoys me- what were the jurors supposed to do? The anger should be at the prosecution and the State, not at the jury’s decision. This whole issue can be blamed on LBJ’s "Great Society. Where white liberals insist on keeping The Black race as indentured servants on the leash of welfare. And the leaders of this continued outrage are Black activists such as Jesse Jackson and Sheila Jackson Lee. It’s a disgrace to humanity. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/264 "2013-07-22T14:51:10Z")
The hell of it is, I’ve yet to meet a person who blames the jury for this. I’ve met and heard a LOT of people say Zimmerman got away with it but because of the circumstances and the law. This publicity-seeking “Juror B37” or whatever might shift more focus onto the jury, but until now I’ve heard not a single person say they screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/265 "2013-07-22T15:08:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The hell of it is, I’ve yet to meet a person who blames the jury for this. I’ve met and heard a LOT of people say Zimmerman got away with it but because of the circumstances and the law. > > This publicity-seeking “Juror B37” or whatever might shift more focus onto the jury, but until now I’ve heard not a single person say they screwed up. You’re saying you haven’t seen anyone here say the jury screwed up? Or do you mean “meet” and “heard” as “in real life?” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/266 "2013-07-22T17:52:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re saying you haven’t seen anyone here say the jury screwed up? > > Or do you mean “meet” and “heard” as “in real life?” I mean real life, not on here. I mean, we’ve also had a person on here say black people are “feral proto-humans,” but I’m smart enough to know what a person says on a message board is often greatly exaggerated by the intoxication of anonymity. And hell, even on here there aren’t that many people saying “the facts of the case were proven beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury erred.” Actually, to be honest I can’t think of anyone I’ve read saying that, though I’m sure there are a couple. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/267 "2013-07-22T18:01:35Z")
Deleted duplicate post. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/268 "2013-07-22T18:12:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Beating up on someone who approaches you, even in the dark and at night, is thuggish behavior. When someone comes out and says “Stop it, I am calling 911”, not stopping to beat up on someone is thuggish behavior. A thug is as thug does. > The two above are “known actions”. Especially the second one. Oh please. You don’t know that that’s what happened at all you know that you don’t know that’s what happened. Other than knowing That in your personal opinion it is true. That’s fine. But what everybody knows, is extremely limited. Even if we assume that all of the witnesses (not the defendant) are telling the truth as they understand the truth to be, we know what Jeantel said they talked about we know there was running and arguing we know Martin was on top part of the time bringing his arms up and down, we know that Zimmerman shot him, we know that he was on Martin’s back for some reason. And we know the contents of the nonemergency number phone call, we don’t even know what was actually happening during that except for when jeantel said. Anything else you think “we” know, is whatever Version of Zimmermans tale of events you choose to believe. If you believe it, you’re entitled. That doesn’t make it something that we all know. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/269 "2013-07-22T18:21:17Z")
Apologies if this was mentioned already, but what about all the people _pleased_ at the verdict because they think that the verdict proves that Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong, and that society is fully backing up all of his actions and his version of events? Do they deserve pitting too? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/270 "2013-07-22T18:30:55Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Apologies if this was mentioned already, but what about all the people _pleased_ at the verdict because they think that the verdict proves that Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong, and that society is fully backing up all of his actions and his version of events? Do they deserve pitting too? Yes. This case has been a magnet for everyone who attended “Franklin & Bash University of Law” to weigh in, and then to be corrected smugly by the folks that attended the ivy League equivalent, “Law & Order University.” People have taken their half-formed, half-baked, half-crocked ideas about the law and bizarrely insisted that they are right because… well… they never say why, but I’m sure it’s those long hours watching legal-themed TV shows. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/271 "2013-07-22T18:39:02Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Because he really, really, really feels that way. That makes it a fact. That’s how many of the pro-Martin people seem to operate. > > They just **know** things. Don’t need proof. It seems to bother them that the justice system is based on things like proof and evidence. Never ceases to amaze. Take thress of the most vocal, me, Steophan, and magiver. Look at the sentence structure and word choice. With some exceptions when the context demonstrates it for me. I have consistently framed my opinions as my opinions. Strongly held, yes, but mine. Wheres those two, Steophan in particular, state everything as absolute, immutable, inarguable fact. And not just things that ARE facts, but everything they happen to believe. So check again. really read the words and remove yourself from your own beliefs about what happened here. The genuinely knowable facts are quite limited. Everything else is inference/opinion - things each of us individually have decided are facts for our ourselves. I own mine as that. See who else does. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/272 "2013-07-22T18:46:55Z")
Let me start by saying I think the jury probably got it right, but only because Florida law is fucked up. > [@bump](#): > > despite a lot of stuff showing that he was kind of thuggish. If Treyvon Martin was thuggish then the term has been severely diluted since my time. Thugs aren’t what they used to be I guess. > [@G-SE](#): > > It doesn’t help when idiots like yourself continue to make up your own story and facts to suit your outrage. Your account of what happened is a LIE, not supported by any evidence presented in the trial. Some of it is. > [@](#): > > If the blonde white girl assaulted Zimmerman without provocation, broke his nose and began slamming his head against the sidewalk while pinning him down, my reaction would be the same. “without provovcation”?:dubious:? Now who’s making shit up? > [@magellan01](#): > > It was only after he had his nose broken and the person who broke it was on top of him banging his head against the concrete that he pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon. Self defense usually requires “clean hands” (but recent evidence suggects that my recollection of criminal law is spotty, based on majority rules from the 1990’s and and not particularly relevant to florida) so if he started it then he would have to clearly surrender before being able to avail himself of self defense. But with Florida’s screwed up burden of proof, I don’t know how that would apply. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Nothing in your post is compatible with the evidence presented at trial or known outside of the trial. Well, some of it is. > [@Bricker](#): > > Ok, let’s say Zimmerman initiated the fight by talking to Martin, and wasn’t in fear of his life at that time. > > Florida law still says he can use deadly force if he becomes in fear of his life and has no avenue of escape. > > So even granting your idea of what happened, Florida law excuses Zimmerman. So even if Zimmerman initiated the fight and applied deadly force (perhaps by waving around his gun), if Martin responded by using deadly force, Zimmerman can respond to Martin’s self defense with deadly force? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So basically in Florida, just because you start a fight does not mean if you lose, the other party gets to beat you (or try to) beat you to death leaving you with no legal means of ending the assault. It might, if you were committing a crime to begin with. > [@](#): > > In most States if someone starts a fight with me and I beat them to death This is not directed at you in particular but I am amazed at all the pro-gun folks who are wringing their hands over the lethality of Treyvon Martin’s fists while waving away the lethality of a gun. If someone attacks me (or pulls a gun on me) and I fight back, he doesn’t get to shoot me because I start kicking his ass. Does he? > [@](#): > > there should be some protection for people who lose fights–even ones they start. Why? > [@Bricker](#): > > If your fear is reasonable, and you can show that for each biker you “mow down” you had a specific fear of serious bodily injury or death _from him_, and the jury believes you, and your initial contact did not include a physical component so as to make you an aggressor - yes. I am simply not impressed by these injuries. People make it sound like Zimmerman used his last conscieous moment to fire a shot at Martin. If he had his holster in the 4 o clock position, I think there is at least a 50/50 chance that he already had his gun out of the holster. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/273 "2013-07-22T18:50:08Z")
> **[George Zimmerman helps rescue family from car wreck](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/22/sanford-zimmerman-rescue/2575217/)** > > Man who shot Trayvon Martin helped remove family from overturned SUV. along with cites about Zimmerman’s other activities, I am comvinced that Zimmerman is not some racist asshole but he killed an innocent boy. The fact that the boy was beting him in a fight does little to satisfy my sense of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/274 "2013-07-22T19:18:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Ok, let’s say Zimmerman initiated the fight by talking to Martin, and wasn’t in fear of his life at that time. > > > > Florida law still says he can use deadly force if he becomes in fear of his life and has no avenue of escape. > > > > So even granting your idea of what happened, Florida law excuses Zimmerman. > > So even if Zimmerman initiated the fight and applied deadly force (perhaps by waving around his gun), if Martin responded by using deadly force, Zimmerman can respond to Martin’s self defense with deadly force? Tricky question, for the following reason: The answer is no, the law says that in the case of Zimmerman waving around his gun, he would have committed a forcible felony first, and if he does that he’s not entitled to claim self-defense. But the law also says that in order for that to be used at trial, the state must charge Zimmerman with the independent forcible felony. In other words, they must charge not only the act that killed Martin ( which they did) but also separately charge the felony assault arising from the gun waving. And of course they did not, because the gun-waving is purely speculative. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/275 "2013-07-22T19:30:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the law also says that in order for that to be used at trial, the state must charge Zimmerman with the independent forcible felony. In other words, they must charge not only the act that killed Martin ( which they did) but also separately charge the felony assault arising from the gun waving. And in order for it to count in terms of negating self-defense, they have to prove that independent forcible felony as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/276 "2013-07-22T19:41:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And in order for it to count in terms of negating self-defense, they have to prove that independent forcible felony as well. Yes. but in order to get the jury to even consider it, they would have needed to charge it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/277 "2013-07-22T19:47:57Z")
That’s where the whole thing turns surreal to me. If Zimmerman - the guy that killed the other guy - had waved his gun around, then we could charge him with the forcible felony that would negate his self-defense claim. But since we can’t charge with that - _because he said he didn’t do it_ - all bets are off. It’s just dumb-luck, I suppose, that the one other person, who isn’t being charged with a crime, who could attest to exactly when that gun was pulled, was killed by that same gun. Oh well. Shit happenes and all that. Zimmie’s got some SUV drivers to save. Off you go. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/278 "2013-07-22T19:50:21Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > That’s where the whole thing turns surreal to me. If Zimmerman - the guy that killed the other guy - had waved his gun around, then we could charge him with the forcible felony that would negate his self-defense claim. But since we can’t charge with that - _because he said he didn’t do it_ - all bets are off. No, you can’t charge him with that because 1. you have no idea whether it happened, and, more importantly, 2. you have absolutely no way of proving it if you do. What is surreal to me is people thinking that someone should be charged with and, worse, convicted of something that there is no way to prove they did. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/279 "2013-07-22T19:56:07Z")
Again, it’s pure Thunderdome mentality. Two go in, one come out. And if there are no witnesses, you can just make up any goddamned thing you’d like to get you off the hook. “Of course I only used my gun as a last defense. There’s no way I would have pulled out while I was looking for one of those punk assholes who I didn’t know was armed or not who always get away.” Oh. Ok. Sorry George. Off you go again. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/280 "2013-07-22T20:00:34Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > That’s where the whole thing turns surreal to me. If Zimmerman - the guy that killed the other guy - had waved his gun around, then we could charge him with the forcible felony that would negate his self-defense claim. But since we can’t charge with that - _because he said he didn’t do it_ - all bets are off. Not exactly. You can’t charge him with that, just like you can’t charge him with any other crime for which you have no evidence. Think this through. You want to charge him for pulling his gun and waving it around? OK. You’re still on board with the rule that when you charge something, you have to have some evidence for it, right? So what’s the evidence? You make a big deal out of saying, “Because Zimmerman said he didn’t do it.” But in fact, that’s not the problem. Forget Zimmerman. We don’t believe him. We erase every word he spoke on the subject. What’s left? THIS is the problem: what’s left is a blank page. You don’t create evidence that he DID wave the gun just by erasing his words that he DIDN’T wave the gun. Do you see this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=15)