# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/341 "2013-07-24T18:32:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Meanwhile, back in Florida: Dream Defenders? Never heard of them. It’s not that difficult to ignore something you’ve never heard of. How many of them are there? 6? 8? 12? Maybe they’re just auditioning for an intership at the race-baiting NBC/MSNBC network? At least they’re not stalking and attacking Peruvian-Americans. That’s a plus. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/342 "2013-07-24T18:47:11Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …At least they’re not stalking and attacking Peruvian-Americans. That’s a plus. Machy Picchu man! I’ve gotta be a Machu Picchu man!.. Sorry. Dream Defenders refers to the Dream Act, an effort to extend a helpful hand to young people who are, for all practical purposes, Americans. An effort to extend ourselves on behalf of young people who have done no wrong but face a ghastly prospect of deportation for no good reason. Clearly a target for snide derision, and you rose to the challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/343 "2013-07-24T18:51:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Funny how you assume the reader will immediately take a comparison to Occupy as being proof of something derogatory. Not precisely derogatory. Just - disorganized and unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/344 "2013-07-24T19:06:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So what? Lets say that TM had a change of heart and decided to confront this guy that was following him. He had AT LEAST as much of a right to confront some strange guy following him around in a pick-up as GZ had to follow a teenage black boy with skittles in his pocket. TM had no obligation to go running into his daddy’s house. Maybe TM was the one who just wanted to talk and GZ plled a gun on him. … And GZ had no obligation to stay in his truck or run back to it. And since the state could not introduce an attempted anal rape scenario without at least some evidence to back that up then that hypothetical has no legal bearing. We can dream up any multitude of scenarios that _could_ have happened but are not supported by evidence. Maybe GZ confronted TM out of GZ’s desire to confess his role as Whitey Bulger’s hit man. Hearing such shocking revelations TM could have tried to make a citizen’s arrest and then GZ unlawfully killed him. _Could have happened._ But there is absolutely no evidence it went down that way. Fundamentally this was the state’s major problem - an inability to provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt in support of a scenario that made GZ legally liable. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/345 "2013-07-24T19:07:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Machy Picchu man! I’ve gotta be a Machu Picchu man!.. > > Sorry. > > Dream Defenders refers to the Dream Act, an effort to extend a helpful hand to young people who are, for all practical purposes, Americans. An effort to extend ourselves on behalf of young people who have done no wrong but face a ghastly prospect of deportation for no good reason. > > Clearly a target for snide derision, and you rose to the challenge. In the BBQ Pit? I’m shocked, SHOCKED that something like that would happen in the BBQ Pit. :smack: So the Dream Defenders are branching out and have included SYG in their “dream”. Are illegal aliens in favor of standing their ground or are they against it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/346 "2013-07-24T19:08:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Not precisely derogatory. Just - disorganized and unrealistic. I’ve met very few actual cynics in my time. Its a harsh judgment, and I render it cautiously. I’ve yet to meet one who didn’t think of himself as hard-headed and realistic. Might want to mull that over some time. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/347 "2013-07-24T19:10:03Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s not that difficult to ignore something you’ve never heard of. And yet, you couldn’t do it. > [@](#): > > GZ was by the “T” and TM was some 300 feet away by his daddy fiance house. So, is there a cite for the “300 ft” bullshit that keeps oozing out of you? As you know, Zimmerman’s attorney, Don West, took great pains to establish that Jeantel couldn’t say exactly where Martin was located at any time, because - duh - she couldn’t see him. Why don’t you believe Don West, **doorhinge**? Here’s how it works: I’m right by my house. As I type this, I’m right by my house. But I’m walking as I type, okay? So where am I, **doorhinge**? How many feet away from my house am I? What, you don’t know? But I just told you. I’m right by my house! Could you find the exact spot on a map? Never mind you can’t see me and you’re not familiar with my location - where am I? Come on, if Rachel Jeantel can do it, why can’t you? How many feet away from my house am I right now??? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/348 "2013-07-24T19:17:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > In the BBQ Pit? I’m shocked, SHOCKED that something like that would happen in the BBQ Pit. :smack:… Hey, I admitted it was a bad joke! Sheesh! > [@](#): > > …So the Dream Defenders are branching out and have included SYG in their “dream”. Are illegal aliens in favor of standing their ground or are they against it? Dunno. If they were there in support of Zimmerman, would that change anything for you? Might you be inclined to be more generous? And they don’t think of themselves as illegal aliens, but as Americans caught in a legal limbo through no fault of their own. I’m inclined to agree. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/349 "2013-07-24T19:21:06Z")
I’d like to know how fast \*\*doorhinge \*\*thinks Martin was if, inside of a minute or so, he could gangsta-shuffle the lenghth of a football field, go inside the house to put his golf shoes on (another brilliant theory) and gansta-shuffle back another 300 feet in order lay the beat down on the guy he was previously running away from. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/350 "2013-07-24T19:30:13Z")
From the [Serino Interview with Zimmerman](https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079) (my emphasis): > [@](#): > > Serino: You said he ran again. OK, this is, this is because you don’t see him? > Zimmerman: Correct. > Serino: So at this point he has to be hiding from you. > Zimmerman: I don’t know where he was. > Serino: Well you… > Zimmerman: I don’t see him. > Serino: Well the law of the physics says that he’s hiding from you at this point. He could not have made it home…and came back to attack you in that time, so…What’s your, what’s your, um, account is that you don’t see him at this point. You’re at the T now, right? Here’s the pavement, correct? You’re looking down that way? That passage? > Zimmerman: No, sir. > Serino: Where’re you at? > Zimmerman: Once he told me not to follow him… > Serino: Mm hmm. > Zimmerman: And I wasn’t following him. I was just going in the same direction he was. Once he said… > Serino: That’s following (laughs). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/351 "2013-07-24T19:36:26Z")
> [@camille](#): > > From the [Serino Interview with Zimmerman](https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079) (my emphasis): Again, with emphasis. Serino was lying to Zimmerman, repeatedly, in order to elicit inconsistencies and contradictions. He testified to that on the stand, under oath. It’s an interrogation technique. Anything that Serino says in those interrogations has to be taken as a lie or a potential lie. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/352 "2013-07-24T19:41:37Z")
> [@camille](#): > > And yet, you couldn’t do it. > So, is there a cite for the “300 ft” bullshit that keeps oozing out of you? As you know, Zimmerman’s attorney, Don West, took great pains to establish that Jeantel couldn’t say exactly where Martin was located at any time, because - duh - she couldn’t see him. Why don’t you believe Don West, **doorhinge**? > > Here’s how it works: > > I’m right by my house. As I type this, I’m right by my house. But I’m walking as I type, okay? > > So where am I, **doorhinge**? How many feet away from my house am I? > > What, you don’t know? But I just told you. I’m right by my house! > > Could you find the exact spot on a map? > > Never mind you can’t see me and you’re not familiar with my location - where am I? > > Come on, if Rachel Jeantel can do it, why can’t you? How many feet away from my house am I right now??? Jeantel never mentioned your location. In fact, Jeantel never mentioned you at all. If you’re lost, you should ask Jeantel or maybe a neighborhood watch volunteer for assistance. Brandy Green’s house was over 300 feet away from the “T” according to the introduced evidence. Jeantel testified that TM was by his daddy fiance house. West was attempting to impeach Jeantel’s testimony. That’s the job of the defense. Was he successful? As confusing as it was listening to Jeantel’s testimony, I don’t recall her changing her testimony about TM’s location. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/353 "2013-07-24T19:47:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Jeantel never mentioned your location. In fact, Jeantel never mentioned you at all. If you’re lost, you should ask Jeantel or maybe a neighborhood watch volunteer for assistance. > > Brandy Green’s house was over 300 feet away from the “T” according to the introduced evidence. Jeantel testified that TM was by his daddy fiance house. > > West was attempting to impeach Jeantel’s testimony. That’s the job of the defense. Was he successful? As confusing as it was listening to Jeantel’s testimony, I don’t recall her changing her testimony about TM’s location. Blah, blah, blah. In other words, you got nothing. You know it’s not possible for her to know that, but you’re going to keep on pretending. Knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/354 "2013-07-24T19:51:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, with emphasis. Serino was lying to Zimmerman, repeatedly, in order to elicit inconsistencies and contradictions. He testified to that on the stand, under oath. It’s an interrogation technique. Anything that Serino says in those interrogations has to be taken as a lie or a potential lie. Yes, and discerning readers can discern which statements are lies, and which statements are factual. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/355 "2013-07-24T19:53:32Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Yes, and discerning readers can discern which statements are lies, and which statements are factual. I know. Those you wish were not a lie are “factual”. Because of course going 600 feet in four minutes is “against the laws of physics”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/356 "2013-07-24T19:55:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hey, I admitted it was a bad joke! Sheesh! > Dunno. If they were there in support of Zimmerman, would that change anything for you? Might you be inclined to be more generous? > > And they don’t think of themselves as illegal aliens, but as Americans caught in a legal limbo through no fault of their own. I’m inclined to agree. I thought it was a great joke. It’s still running thru my mind. _Machu Picchu man. I’ve gotta be a Machu Picchu man_!.. I may curse you later tonight when I’m trying to sleep but right now it’s still witty. Are they there in support of Zimmerman? I’m under the impression that they’ve trying to revise SYG. I’m also under the impression that they are recieving little actual support outside of a few media/blogger-types. :yawn: GZ’s defense was based on standard, olde tyme, self-defense. Changing Florida’s SYG law wouldn’t apply to a future GZ-type of case. GZ wasn’t in a position to retreat. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/357 "2013-07-24T20:02:55Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’d like to know how fast \*\*doorhinge \*\*thinks Martin was if, inside of a minute or so, he could gangsta-shuffle the lenghth of a football field, go inside the house to put his golf shoes on (another brilliant theory) and gansta-shuffle back another 300 feet in order lay the beat down on the guy he was previously running away from. TM had golf shoes on? I didn’t know that. On what day was that evidence introduced to the court? Didn’t they introduce evidence in court that some 4 minutes had pass between the time GZ had lost sight of TM and when the shot was fired? Can you put golf shoes on in under 4 minutes? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/358 "2013-07-24T20:06:52Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Blah, blah, blah. In other words, you got nothing. > > You know it’s not possible for her to know that, but you’re going to keep on pretending. Knock yourself out. I’ve got Jeantel’s testimony. Are you claiming that Jeantel is a lying liar? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/359 "2013-07-24T20:11:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know. Those you wish were not a lie are “factual”. Because of course going 600 feet in four minutes is “against the laws of physics”. I agree that Serino is no scientist. But I know which scenario is more likely, and so does he. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/360 "2013-07-24T20:15:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’ve got Jeantel’s testimony. Are you claiming that Jeantel is a lying liar? Same as you’re a lying liar for not knowing how far from my house I was when I told you: I was right by my house! Still waiting for a cite for that 300 feet. TIA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=19)